Excessive swinging of elbows

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Based on his description, there is nowayinhell that is a PC foul. It's a completely legal pivot as per NFHS rule 4-24-8:
"It is not legal to swing arms or elbows excessively. This occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot."

There was NO excessive elbow swinging and the elbows were NOT moving faster than the torso.

Those criteria have only been used...oh....forever.


Lah me.....

Since I am working a camp this weekend I actually have my rule book handy, granted it is the NCAA book so the NFHS might be different
If you would focus attention on 4.36.6 B and C of the hymnal you will see that this very well COULD be a PCF. If the offensive players arms were near ones chest or were held approximately horizontal to the floor when contact is made it would be a foul. There is even a nice italicized note that says: These illegal positions are most commonly used when rebounding, screening or in various aspects of post play

EDIT: And since I wanted to get ice cream I took the 07-08 NFHS rule book I was using to support a table out and found that there is a similar pharse used in 4.24.6 last sentence. Page 35 in my hymnal

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

If you would focus attention on 4.36.6 B and C of the hymnal you will see that this very well COULD be a PCF. If the offensive players arms were near ones chest or were held approximately horizontal to the floor when contact is made it would be a foul. There is even a nice italicized note that says: These illegal positions are most commonly used when rebounding, screening or in various aspects of post play

Golly gee, I got me one of them there NCAA rule books too. And I just got somebody to read it to me.

NCAA Rule4-36-7:
The following shall be considered excessive swinging:
(a) when arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung about while using the shoulder as pivots, and [b]the speed of the extended arm(s) and elbow(s) exceeds that of the rest of the body as it rotates with hips as the pivot point[b]: or
(b) When the speed and vigor with the arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung is such that that unhury could result in aniother player when contacted.

Well, I'll be damned. The NCAA and NFHS rules are almost identical. And under both rulesets, the pivot as described by Hornets was a legal pivot.

Maybe next time you could focus your attention on the applicable rule instead of taking something out of context from another one.

[Judtech]

I am not taking you out of context, you obviously believe that Article 5 NOT Article 6 is the applicable rule on this play. IMO Article 6 is the supercendent rule application, especially in light of the Note section at the end.
I am not arguing the pivot, I am arguing the elbows.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

I am not taking you out of context, you obviously believe that Article 5 NOT Article 6 is the applicable rule on this play. IMO Article 6 is the supercendent rule application, especially in light of the Note section at the end.
I am not arguing the pivot, I am arguing the elbows.

What rulebook are you looking at? I cited NCAA rule 4-36-7 out of THIS year's rule book. That's the applicable rule. I NEVER mentioned Article 5.

The play being discussed is a player with the ball pivoting and contacting a defender with an elbow DURING that pivot, as described by Hornet. How can you NOT argue the freaking pivot? The call depends SOLELY on whether A1 made a legal pivot.

That's enough for me tonight.

[Judtech]

You're right you said 7 not 5, typo on my part.
I was using the pivot foot, but I think you are using the entire movement as the pivot. In that case I am going to say that in the OP the pivot was illegal based on aritcle 6 and even if I was using article 7 I would look at item B. The 'vigor' part of speed and vigor would seem to come into play.
This is where the defense actions come into play. If they player is reaching over/around/under and is preventing the post player from pivoting then contact is on the defender. The plays I am thinking of in that situation make it difficult to impossible for the offensive player to get their elbows in position set forth in article 6.