Excessive swinging of elbows

[Judtech]

That makes sense and I would have to see the contact to judge but if the defensive player ends up on the ground, I will go with some salt on the wound. The reasons being that it will help clean up the game b/c it won't happen again. Also, another player may see what they think is an elbow that wasn't called and want to retaliate.

[Hornets222003]

Here's a little more information to clarify

It was a "long" defensive rebound just outside the paint just above the second free throw space. Naturally, the guards float to the ball to go for the strip. His primary defender (whom he beat to the ball) is there plus one other guard - both going for the ball. Another defender approaches from behind ( I guess he though he could sneak up and still the ball). He leans in takes a couple of swipes, but I don't think the post player knows he's there yet on account that there are 4 arms reaching for the ball from the front. He pivots away from these two, and as he does, he makes contact with the third defender.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

[Adam]

Sounds like a no-call unless it knocked the ball out.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Hornets222003

Here's a little more information to clarify

It was a "long" defensive rebound just outside the paint just above the second free throw space. Naturally, the guards float to the ball to go for the strip. His primary defender (whom he beat to the ball) is there plus one other guard - both going for the ball. Another defender approaches from behind ( I guess he though he could sneak up and still the ball). He leans in takes a couple of swipes, but I don't think the post player knows he's there yet on account that there are 4 arms reaching for the ball from the front. He pivots away from these two, and as he does, he makes contact with the third defender.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

I really think this is a HTBT, but I'm wondering how an extended elbow can hit a jaw, but the jaw is in A1's space. If the elbow is extended, then that, by rule, is outside the player's space.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by sseltser

I really think this is a HTBT, but I'm wondering how an extended elbow can hit a jaw, but the jaw is in A1's space. If the elbow is extended, then that, by rule, is outside the player's space.

Not necessarily. Chinning the ball doesn't mean the elbows are outside the player's space. That's the impression I got from his post, even though he said "extended." Having the player behind him leaning in and trying to swipe a ball that's in front, it's going to have to be pretty obvious that the elbow was extended and swinging excessively.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by sseltser

I really think this is a HTBT, but I'm wondering how an extended elbow can hit a jaw, but the jaw is in A1's space. If the elbow is extended, then that, by rule, is outside the player's space.

What rule?

I can't think of any rule that states that a player with the ball can't extend his elbow(s) in a normal fashion while making a legal pivot. The decision that you have to make if contact occurs is whether the defender actually did have a legal, vertical stance or not. The defender's jaw may or may not be in A'1 space, but you have to determine that on each and every play. You can't make up a one-size fits-all dictum like an extended elbow is always illegal to cover these types of call. You don't have the rules-backing to do something like that/

You have to determine first and foremost if the pivot by A1 was legal or not. The ensuing right/proper call can't be made without that determination.

Of course, it's a HTBT call though. Every single one of these elbow-swinging situations is. You have to treat each and every one as a unique play imo and judge that play solely on it's merits. And like any other judgment call, you might get one wrong some time.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What rule?

I can't think of any rule that states that a player with the ball can't extend his elbow(s) in a normal fashion while making a legal pivot. The decision that you have to make if contact occurs is whether the defender actually did have a legal, vertical stance or not. The defender's jaw may or may not be in A'1 space, but you have to determine that on each and every play. You can't make up a one-size fits-all dictum like an extended elbow is always illegal to cover these types of call. You don't have the rules-backing to do something like that/

You have to determine first and foremost if the pivot by A1 was legal or not. The ensuing right/proper call can't be made without that determination.

Of course, it's a HTBT call though. Every single one of these elbow-swinging situations is. You have to treat each and every one as a unique play imo and judge that play solely on it's merits. And like any other judgment call, you might get one wrong some time.

The rule is 4-24-6:
The extension of the elbows when the hands are on the hips or when the hands are held near the chest or when the arms are held more or less horizontally are examples of the illegal positions used.

The rules state that extending the elbows is not legal, even if you think it is "normal."

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Based on his description, there is nowayinhell that is a PC foul. It's a completely legal pivot as per NFHS rule 4-24-8:
"It is not legal to swing arms or elbows excessively. This occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot."

There was NO excessive elbow swinging and the elbows were NOT moving faster than the torso.

I agree that there is not a one-size-fits-all way to call these. But for you to say that there is "nowayinhell" that this is a PC foul is wrong. Just because a pivot is legal, doesn't mean that the offensive player didn't cause illegal contact with his arms/elbows.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by sseltser

1)The rule is 4-24-6:

2) But for you to say that there is "nowayinhell" that this is a PC foul is wrong. Just because a pivot is legal, doesn't mean that the offensive player didn't cause illegal contact with his arms/elbows.

1) And you're treating 4-24-8 as if it doesn't exist. And 4-24-8 specifically refers to excessive and illegal elbow swinging, which is what we're discussing. Not all elbow swinging is excessive and illegal. If it was, any pivot with your arms out in a normal position would also be illegal. Do you really think that's the case?

2) There is nowayinhell you can call a PC foul or a violation on any offensive player with the ball while that player is making a LEGAL pivot. There is nothing written anywhere in the rules that will allow you to do so. To call either, you must have an illegal act of some kind to occur. And an legal pivot is NOt an illegal act. To say otherwise is simply ridiculous imo.

We're never going to agree. May I suggest that you take this to your local or state rules interpreter and ask them if an offensive player with the ball can ever be called for a PC foul or a violation while making a legal pivot.

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) And you're treating 4-24-8 as if it doesn't exist. And 4-24-8 specifically refers to excessive and illegal elbow swinging, which is what we're discussing. Not all elbow swinging is excessive and illegal. If it was, any pivot with your arms out in a normal position would also be illegal. Do you really think that's the case?

2) There is nowayinhell you can call a PC foul or a violation on any offensive player with the ball while that player is making a LEGAL pivot. There is nothing written anywhere in the rules that will allow you to do so. To call either, you must have an illegal act of some kind to occur. And an legal pivot is NOt an illegal act. To say otherwise is simply ridiculous imo.

We're never going to agree. May I suggest that you take this to your local or state rules interpreter and ask them if an offensive player with the ball can ever be called for a PC foul or a violation while making a legal pivot.

I have to disagree with you on this. There are several rules at play.

The elbow swing does not have to be excessive,

If the elbow extends outside the vertical plane the responsibility for contact belongs to the offense. If the defender is inside the offensive space the it is a defensive foul.
There are plenty of pivots that are wide- There are plenty of pivots that extend into other players

Rarely is there going to be contact with an elbow in my game and not have a foul. This can never be incidental, It has to be called.

[Raymond]

2009-10 NCAA-M POE

Excessive Swinging of the Elbows
Last year, there were increases in excessive swinging of the elbows. This action should not be ignored because of the associated danger to another player. Contact resulting from an illegally thrown elbow can cause serious injury. Consequently, excessive swinging of the elbow(s) is a point of emphasis.

When the arm and elbow, with the shoulder as a base (pivot) are swung with a speed that exceeds the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot, that action is considered to be excessive. Contact, after such an action, shall not be ignored but shall be called a flagrant foul. When the player’s arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung excessively but without contact, a violation has been committed.

When the arms and elbows and the rest of the body move with the same or similarly generated speed and contact occurs, that contact is not considered to be excessive. However, the contact is illegal, and a foul shall be assessed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

2009-10 NCAA-M POE

Excessive Swinging of the Elbows
Last year, there were increases in excessive swinging of the elbows. This action should not be ignored because of the associated danger to another player. Contact resulting from an illegally thrown elbow can cause serious injury. Consequently, excessive swinging of the elbow(s) is a point of emphasis.

When the arm and elbow, with the shoulder as a base (pivot) are swung with a speed that exceeds the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot, that action is considered to be excessive. Contact, after such an action, shall not be ignored but shall be called a flagrant foul. When the player’s arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung excessively but without contact, a violation has been committed.

When the arms and elbows and the rest of the body move with the same or similarly generated speed and contact occurs, that contact is not considered to be excessive. However, the contact is illegal, and a foul shall be assessed.

Further to this, I just e-mailed 4 very trust-worthy(to me, anyway ) sources that I know....2 current D1 mens officials and 1 each current D1/D2 womens officials. All are excellent rules people imo and all seemed to have the same take on this NCAA POE...as follows:

1) This POE applies to excessive swinging of the elbows only. There is some confusion as to how it will also apply to a normal, legal pivot when contact is made with an elbow above and below the neck of an opponent. That needs to be further clarified.

2) For elbows swung faster than the pivot:
(a) violation if no contact
(b) foul of some type for contact
(c) if the contact is above the neck, it has to be called intentional or flagrant.

3) elbows at the same speed as the pivot:
(a) no violation if no contact
(b) the positioning of the elbow is the determining factor if contact is made. You have to decide if the positioning of the elbow was inside the offensive player's normally allowed space or extended outside the normally allowed space.
(c) If the position of the elbow was inside the normally allowed space when contact occurs, any subsequent contact should be ruled incidental.
(d) If the position of the elbow was outside the normally allowed space, it should be a personal foul of some kind on the offensive player. But if the contact outside the normally allowed space also occurs above the neck of the defender, the foul then has to be ruled either intentional or flagrant.

I think that's basically exactly what I was saying, with the addition of the last part of 3(d) that says that contact outside the normally allowed space that is made above the neck having to now always be called intentional or flagrant in nature.

As I said, all four said that they thought some further clarification was needed.

Thoughts from other NCAA officials?

And please note that this is for NCAA only. Afaik, the NFHS rules already cited still apply.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Judtech

That makes sense and I would have to see the contact to judge but if the defensive player ends up on the ground, I will go with some salt on the wound. The reasons being that it will help clean up the game b/c it won't happen again. Also, another player may see what they think is an elbow that wasn't called and want to retaliate.

I'm not going to call a foul on B1 just because B2 might retaliate otherwise. Frankly, I'm no-calling it because it's not a foul by rule. B1's actions didn't prevent A1 from participating in normal offensive movements, so the contact is incidental by rule.

Getting an elbow in the nose prevents it just as much, if not more so, than a foul call. I'm not making a call just because it might somehow lessen the grief I might take for making the correct no-call.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not going to call a foul on B1 just because B2 might retaliate otherwise. Frankly, I'm no-calling it because it's not a foul by rule. B1's actions didn't prevent A1 from participating in normal offensive movements, so the contact is incidental by rule.

Getting an elbow in the nose prevents it just as much, if not more so, than a foul call. I'm not making a call just because it might somehow lessen the grief I might take for making the correct no-call.

We agree. I was working from the angle that B1's actions DID prevent A1 from making a normal offensive move.
With the final post, we also agree. Again, being a HTBT, I would think this sounds like a now call as well unless the ball comes loose.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

The reasons being that it will help clean up the game b/c it won't happen again. Also, another player may see what they think is an elbow that wasn't called and want to retaliate.

If it hasn't happened yet, there's NO need to clean up the game. You can get yourself into a heaped-high steaming pile of doo-doo by trying to send a message when there's absolutely no need to do so.

Just make the call based on it's own merits. As Snaqs said, you might feel that the best call for that particular play might be a no-call for incidental contact. It might also be a case where the pivot is borderline legal/illegal and you really do want to send a message. But the main idea imo is to judge whether the original pivot was legally made or not. That's the whole crux of the call. If you do decide that the pivot was legally made, it's fairly easy to judge any ensuing contact. The same holds true if you decide that it was an illegal pivot.

What you don't want to ever do is pre-judge the legality of the pivot.

Over-thinking these type of calls can get you into trouble.

JMO.