Excessive swinging of elbows

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Hornets222003

Also, later in the game, a post player makes a legal pivot with his elbows out and contacts a defender in the jaw. I deemed it a legal move (his elbows were not moving faster than his torso, and in my mind, I though the contact was incidental since the gaurd was in his space trying to knock the ball away.

If the player makes contact with the elbow during his pivot, should I call the foul? I wasn't sure so I didn't. Thinking about it after the game, I thought that I remembered someone telling me that it was a POE at some time in the past to call that type of contact a foul.

Hornets:

Based upon your description this is a player control foul by the post player.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Hornets:

Based upon your description this is a player control foul by the post player.

Based on his description, there is nowayinhell that is a PC foul. It's a completely legal pivot as per NFHS rule 4-24-8:
"It is not legal to swing arms or elbows excessively. This occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot."

There was NO excessive elbow swinging and the elbows were NOT moving faster than the torso.

Those criteria have only been used...oh....forever.


Lah me.....

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Based on his description, there is nowayinhell that is a PC foul. It's a completely legal pivot as per NFHS rule 4-24-8:
"It is not legal to swing arms or elbows excessively. This occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot."

There was NO excessive elbow swinging and the elbows were NOT moving faster than the torso.

Those criteria have only been used...oh....forever.


Lah me.....

Just because arm swinging isn't "excessive" doesn't mean that illegal contact wasn't created by the elbows. Excessive swinging isn't the only way for elbow swinging to be illegal.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Just because arm swinging isn't "excessive" doesn't mean that illegal contact wasn't created by the elbows. Excessive swinging isn't the only way for elbow swinging to be illegal.

Oh? And do you think it's then OK to ignore the rest of NFHS rule 4-24?

A player with the ball is allowed to legally pivot. And from Hornet's description, I can't think of any rule that would make that pivot illegal in any way.

If anybody can find one and cite it though, I'd certainly be glad to listen.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by jurassic referee

oh? And do you think it's then ok to ignore the rest of nfhs rule 4-24?

A player with the ball is allowed to legally pivot. And from hornet's description, i can't think of any rule that would make that pivot illegal in any way.

If anybody can find one and cite it though, i'd certainly be glad to listen.

4-24-6

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Based on his description, there is nowayinhell that is a PC foul. It's a completely legal pivot as per NFHS rule 4-24-8:
"It is not legal to swing arms or elbows excessively. This occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot."

There was NO excessive elbow swinging and the elbows were NOT moving faster than the torso.

Those criteria have only been used...oh....forever.


Lah me.....

Since I am working a camp this weekend I actually have my rule book handy, granted it is the NCAA book so the NFHS might be different
If you would focus attention on 4.36.6 B and C of the hymnal you will see that this very well COULD be a PCF. If the offensive players arms were near ones chest or were held approximately horizontal to the floor when contact is made it would be a foul. There is even a nice italicized note that says: These illegal positions are most commonly used when rebounding, screening or in various aspects of post play

EDIT: And since I wanted to get ice cream I took the 07-08 NFHS rule book I was using to support a table out and found that there is a similar pharse used in 4.24.6 last sentence. Page 35 in my hymnal

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

If you would focus attention on 4.36.6 B and C of the hymnal you will see that this very well COULD be a PCF. If the offensive players arms were near ones chest or were held approximately horizontal to the floor when contact is made it would be a foul. There is even a nice italicized note that says: These illegal positions are most commonly used when rebounding, screening or in various aspects of post play

Golly gee, I got me one of them there NCAA rule books too. And I just got somebody to read it to me.

NCAA Rule4-36-7:
The following shall be considered excessive swinging:
(a) when arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung about while using the shoulder as pivots, and [b]the speed of the extended arm(s) and elbow(s) exceeds that of the rest of the body as it rotates with hips as the pivot point[b]: or
(b) When the speed and vigor with the arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung is such that that unhury could result in aniother player when contacted.

Well, I'll be damned. The NCAA and NFHS rules are almost identical. And under both rulesets, the pivot as described by Hornets was a legal pivot.

Maybe next time you could focus your attention on the applicable rule instead of taking something out of context from another one.

[Judtech]

I am not taking you out of context, you obviously believe that Article 5 NOT Article 6 is the applicable rule on this play. IMO Article 6 is the supercendent rule application, especially in light of the Note section at the end.
I am not arguing the pivot, I am arguing the elbows.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Based on his description, there is nowayinhell that is a PC foul. It's a completely legal pivot as per NFHS rule 4-24-8:
"It is not legal to swing arms or elbows excessively. This occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot."

There was NO excessive elbow swinging and the elbows were NOT moving faster than the torso.

Those criteria have only been used...oh....forever.


Lah me.....

JR:

Read the portion I quoted in my OP. I agree with you, based upon the description of the play, that the post player did not violate NFHS R4-S24-A8 (and NCAA R4-S36-A7), but that does not absolve him of an infraction of the rules if he pivots and makes illegal contact with a defensive player who has a legal position on the court relative to the post player.

Let us look at the following play. Your teammate attempts a jump shot which he misses and I sky above everybody else (I am laughing so hard right now I can hardly type) and grab the rebound. You are standing behind and slightly to the side of me. I pivot as described in the play we are discussing and my elbow hits you in the chest and displaces you. I have committed a pushing foul and thus a player control foul. I did not swing my elbows excessively, but I fouled you none-the-less.

MTD, Sr.


P.S.: Thanks Camron for getting my back (JR see Camron's post #37).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

1) Read the portion I quoted in my OP. I agree with you, based upon the description of the play, that the post player did not violate NFHS R4-S24-A8 (and NCAA R4-S36-A7), but that does not absolve him of an infraction of the rules if he pivots and makes illegal contact with a defensive player who has a legal position on the court relative to the post player.

2) Let us look at the following play. Your teammate attempts a jump shot which he misses and I sky above everybody else (I am laughing so hard right now I can hardly type) and grab the rebound. You are standing behind and slightly to the side of me. I pivot as described in the play we are discussing and my elbow hits you in the chest and displaces you. I have committed a pushing foul and thus a player control foul. I did not swing my elbows excessively, but I fouled you none-the-less.

And that's where I still completely disagree with you, Mark. From Hornet's original description, I can find NO evidence that the player with the ball made any illegal contact or that the defender did have a legal position on the court. The way that I read it, it was a legal pivot followed by contact. I'm sureasheck not aware of any rule that will allow us to call a foul on any player for making a legal pivot. If you know one, feel free to point it out. Tell me...what exactly did the player with the ball do that was illegal by rule according to Hornet's description?

2) If the player in your #2 above pivots with the ball in a normal fashion without swinging his elbow excessively or extending his elbow abnormally outside out of the usual allowed space, you have NO rules justification to call a foul on that player if contact occurs on that defender. And if you think that you do, cite me a rule, case play, etc. that will back it up. Neither NFHS 4-24-8 or NCAA 4-36-7 does that imo.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Hornets:

Based upon your description this is a player control foul by the post player.

MTD, Sr.

Agree....while it is not excessivly swinging, a player may not legally move into another player who has obtained LGP. Just becasue the piviot is legal doesn't absolve the player form committing a foul in the process. If it were any different, post players could pivot their way through their defenders for easy layups/dunks.