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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 02, 2010, 07:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
Methinks you're confusing your sense of irony with your lack of rules knowledge. I'm in tune with that.
I'm seriously beginning to wonder if you have any friends in real life.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 02, 2010, 07:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judtech View Post
The irony was saying it would have been helpful knowing what occured first. But since we were all caught flat footed on that one and didn't know what happened first we made it up as we went along. We got it wrong, but we did it in such a SPECTACULAR manner, we got away with it!!!!
And if you knew the rules, you wouldn't have had to make anything up. You could have simply followed them.

You had two correct choices you could have made:
1) If you decide that the foul occurred before the ball was through the basket, by rule you cancel the basket and administer the common foul. Case book play 4.41.2.
2) If you decide the contact occurred after the ball was through the basket, and the contact was neither intentional or flagrant(as you posted), by rule you count the basket and ignore the contact as being "incidental". Rule 4-19-1NOTE,

Soooooo, even if you had to guess whether the contact was before or after the basket, you could still have made a correct call after that by rule if you followed #1 or #2 above. Instead, you ended up making a call that had absolutely no basis at all under the rules. What the rules won't allow you to do is count the basket and administer a common foul. That is kinda "ironic", I guess.

You can only get so far conning people when you're officiating, even if you're "spectacular" in doing so. I wouldn't break an arm patting yourself on the back just because some rec league coach had the same rules knowledge as you. You can get away with making up calls in rec leagues but there's some pretty knowledgable coachs around at the higher levels. And if that call went against them, even if they don't know the rule they'll sureasheck check it out.

Hopefully it's a learning experience.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 02, 2010, 07:42pm
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Originally Posted by fiasco View Post
I'm seriously beginning to wonder if you have any friends in real life.
I can pretty much guarantee that I don't have any like you. Nor will I ever.

And that's the last time I'll respond to you. You just went on the "ignore" list with a few select others. That should make for a better relationship between us.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 02, 2010, 08:35pm
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What if, on this play, one official signaled a block and the other signaled a charge, and then they realized that the contact came after the ball went through the basket? Would they still have to report the double foul?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 02, 2010, 09:57pm
APG APG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
What if, on this play, one official signaled a block and the other signaled a charge, and then they realized that the contact came after the ball went through the basket? Would they still have to report the double foul?
I'll take a stab at the play. Since the ball is dead, there is no call to be made. We can't use the airborne shooter exception because this is not a try. If, for some reason, this play happened in a game I was working, I'd get together with my co-official(s) and convince him that we have an inadvertent whistle.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 03, 2010, 01:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco View Post
I'm seriously beginning to wonder if you have any friends in real life.
You're certainly not the only one.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 03, 2010, 02:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judtech View Post
AAU modified NFHS rules. I am not sure we handled this correctly, but we apparently did a good enough job explaining what we were doing and why that neither the State Police or National Guard had to be called. Which when dealing with some AAU tournaments is a HUGE accomplishment.
Here is the play. (and I thought this only happened in the movies!)
Visitors score with 2 seconds left. V presses while H1 is taking the ball out of bounds. H2 receives the pass from H1 as H2 is breaking hard to the ball. H2 then proceeds to shoot a lay up.....at V basket.....H2 makes the basket while V2 attempts to block the shot and fouls the player hard. (Not intentional or flagrant) 1 second left on the clock....
I know what we did and I'll save that fun for later. What would YOU do?
I was just wondering, since no one has yet asked, what was the score when this action took place?
Was the home team significantly ahead, such that this player was just screwing around and showing off by dunking at the wrong end or was he legitimately confused?
If the former, I think that it is time to end the game.
Also, if the score is close enough such that the home team is attempting to gain an advantage by scoring two-points against itself (perhaps instead of risking a turnover or missed FTs at the other end and then surrendering a game-tying three-pointer), I would consider an unsporting technical foul.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 03, 2010, 02:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Also, if the score is close enough such that the home team is attempting to gain an advantage by scoring two-points against itself (perhaps instead of risking a turnover or missed FTs at the other end and then surrendering a game-tying three-pointer), I would consider an unsporting technical foul.
I think I speak for us all when I say:

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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 03, 2010, 03:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judtech View Post
Here is the play. (and I thought this only happened in the movies!)
All big plays in the movies happen in slow motion.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 03, 2010, 03:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
I think I speak for us all when I say:

I'll wait to see the responses of others.
I believe that more people than you think support the concept of Fair Play, especially at the HS level.

Note: Even the NBE has a rule against attempting to score at the wrong basket. It's counter to the basic intent of the game.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 03, 2010, 04:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I'll wait to see the responses of others.
I believe that more people than you think support the concept of Fair Play, especially at the HS level.

Note: Even the NBE has a rule against attempting to score at the wrong basket. It's counter to the basic intent of the game.
In the first place, to say that to score for the other team is an advantage is, at best, a stretch of the imagination. In the second place, "counter to the basic intent of the game" would mean uh.......? Let's see, like for example, intentionally missing a free throw in certain situations. You gonna T 'em for that?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 03, 2010, 04:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post

Note: Even the NBE has a rule against attempting to score at the wrong basket.

But NFHS doesn't.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 03, 2010, 04:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
But NFHS doesn't.
I'm not arguing that it is a violation in NFHS play such as it is at the NBA level. I'm well-aware that the NFHS does not have a rule specifically against this.

I'm stating that it is against the concept of fair play and therefore, depending upon the circumstances, may fall within the purview of the rule addressing unsporting fouls.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Mon May 03, 2010 at 05:03am.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 03, 2010, 05:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
In the first place, to say that to score for the other team is an advantage is, at best, a stretch of the imagination.
You seem to lack some creative thinking ability.
Coaches are not stupid although they often act in that manner. They will find ways to abuse the rules to gain an unintended advantage. (Recall the NCAA football coaches only a couple of seasons ago who quickly figured out that they could purposely be offside on a kick-off in order to burn a few more seconds near the end of a game after scoring due to the new timing rules? The NCAA even came out and stated that this should be penalized with an unsporting flag, and then fixed the loophole by instructing the officials to reset the clock.)
Given that the game clock does NOT stop at the HS level following a made goal in the final minute of play as it does in NCAA games, it can easily be understood that scoring for the opposing team could be quite advantageous under the right circumstances. Specifically, doing so with a three or four point lead, under five seconds remaining in the game, and the opponent not having any time-outs would place the opposing team in a far worse situation than simply inbounding the ball and playing the game in a normal manner. The reason is that instead of the opponent being able to commit a common foul, they must now commit either an intentional personal or a technical foul in order to stop the clock, if the team not credited with the score simply has all of its players stand OOB behind the end line and not inbound the ball.
You really don't see that as putting the team in a more advantageous situation than they previously were?

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
In the second place, "counter to the basic intent of the game" would mean uh.......? Let's see, like for example, intentionally missing a free throw in certain situations. You gonna T 'em for that?
Apples to Oranges. Missing a FT or any other shot on purpose while possibly conferring a strategic advantage does not place the ball in a status such that the opponent cannot get it, thus gaining an advantage wholly outside of the scope of play. You cannot fail to acknowledge that a made goal produces the effect of unequivocally awarding possession of the ball to the non-scoring team WITH THE CLOCK RUNNING at the HS level.
The opponent is severely penalized for interfering with that awarded throw-in. There is even an NFHS play ruling making it a technical foul to delay the game with under five seconds remaining in a throw-in situation for the opponent. Why do you think that the NFHS committee made that ruling? Hmmmm.... coaches trying to take advantage of the rules in an unsporting manner!

Last edited by Nevadaref; Mon May 03, 2010 at 05:05am.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 03, 2010, 06:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I was just wondering, since no one has yet asked, what was the score when this action took place?
Was the home team significantly ahead, such that this player was just screwing around and showing off by dunking at the wrong end or was he legitimately confused?
If the former, I think that it is time to end the game.
You can't by rule. You have to first "instruct"(i.e. warn) the player/team not to do that again. You can only forfeit if a player/team repeatedly committed acts which you considered as making a travesty of the game. You knew that.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Mon May 03, 2010 at 06:34am.
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