Let The Fun Begin..

[Judtech]

AAU modified NFHS rules. I am not sure we handled this correctly, but we apparently did a good enough job explaining what we were doing and why that neither the State Police or National Guard had to be called. Which when dealing with some AAU tournaments is a HUGE accomplishment.
Here is the play. (and I thought this only happened in the movies!)
Visitors score with 2 seconds left. V presses while H1 is taking the ball out of bounds. H2 receives the pass from H1 as H2 is breaking hard to the ball. H2 then proceeds to shoot a lay up.....at V basket.....H2 makes the basket while V2 attempts to block the shot and fouls the player hard. (Not intentional or flagrant) 1 second left on the clock....
I know what we did and I'll save that fun for later. What would YOU do?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Judtech

AAU modified NFHS rules. I am not sure we handled this correctly, but we apparently did a good enough job explaining what we were doing and why that neither the State Police or National Guard had to be called. Which when dealing with some AAU tournaments is a HUGE accomplishment.
Here is the play. (and I thought this only happened in the movies!)
Visitors score with 2 seconds left. V presses while H1 is taking the ball out of bounds. H2 receives the pass from H1 as H2 is breaking hard to the ball. H2 then proceeds to shoot a lay up.....at V basket.....H2 makes the basket while V2 attempts to block the shot and fouls the player hard. (Not intentional or flagrant) 1 second left on the clock....
I know what we did and I'll save that fun for later. What would YOU do?

If the basket was already successful, I have nothing. You said it was not intentional or flagrant. If the basket was not yet successful, call the foul and shoot bonus free throws (if applicable) or it's H's ball the spot nearest the foul.

-Josh

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Judtech

AAU modified NFHS rules. I am not sure we handled this correctly, but we apparently did a good enough job explaining what we were doing and why that neither the State Police or National Guard had to be called. Which when dealing with some AAU tournaments is a HUGE accomplishment.
Here is the play. (and I thought this only happened in the movies!)
Visitors score with 2 seconds left. V presses while H1 is taking the ball out of bounds. H2 receives the pass from H1 as H2 is breaking hard to the ball. H2 then proceeds to shoot a lay up.....at V basket.....H2 makes the basket while V2 attempts to block the shot and fouls the player hard. (Not intentional or flagrant) 1 second left on the clock....
I know what we did and I'll save that fun for later. What would YOU do?

It all depends...
Was the foul before the "shot" entered the basket? If so, no score, can't score with a dead ball and continuous motion does not apply, this is by definition NOT a shot attempt.
Was H team in bonus? If so, shoot FT(s) at other end.

What is so difficult about this play?

[Judtech]

I told you this was fun. It was a dunk (not the afore mentioned lay up) both teams in double bonus.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Judtech

I told you this was fun. It was a dunk (not the afore mentioned lay up) both teams in double bonus.

Was the dunk through the hoop before the foul?

-Josh

[Judtech]

Without the aide of slow mo replay, I couldn't say. Maybe I need to get better at judging that but usually when a player goes up for a dunk and gets fouled while dunking I don't judge when it went through the net. Would have been helpful on this play.
If it had been a lay up or short jumper it would be easier to administer. I am sure we kicked it but we live and learn. The first option was calling the play dead no points for V and H shoots the double bonus. However, we didn't think we could disallow the basket b/c none of us could say for sure that the foul occured prior to the basket. We couldn't ignore the foul, because it was a hard play and a hard foul (and a hard dunk) The shooter had not returned to the floor but there was no airborn shooter in play b/c the foul made the play dead. So we counted the bucket, called the foul after the basket and went down the court to shoot the double bonus. Both coaches were rather exercised during this discussion, but before we proceeded we called them together, explained our reasoning and they were both ok with it. (Although the V coach wanted their player shooting the "and 1" but he was joking!) H missed the second bonus shot and the game went in the books.
So despite whether we kicked the rule or not, the story had a happy ending for everyone except the player who dunked the ball at his own basket, then missed a free throw!!

[truerookie]

I would have disallowed the basket, and shot the free-throws due to the foul on the other end.

[APG]

Question. If you counted the basket, couldn't you have ruled an inadvertent whistle? The only way I see a foul being called and counting the basket is if the foul was ruled an intentional or flagrant technical foul. We don't have an airborne shooter here because the dunk wasn't a try as it was at the wrong basket, so we can't use that exception.

The only way I see this could be ruled is count the basket, rule the whistle inadvertent and play on. Or wave off the basket, and shoot the bonus free throws at the other end of the court.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

1) Without the aide of slow mo replay, I couldn't say. Maybe I need to get better at judging that but usually when a player goes up for a dunk and gets fouled while dunking I don't judge when it went through the net. Would have been helpful on this play.

2) So we counted the bucket, called the foul after the basket and went down the court to shoot the double bonus.

1) Would have been helpful? It's impossible to make the RIGHT call on this play without that knowledge. And you don't need slo-mo to make that decision either. Any half-way competent official automatically looks to see the status of the ball when he calls any foul. All you were doing was guessing...and you're still guessing.

2) Unfortunately, the rules won't allow you to make that call. If the ball was dead(which it is after a basket), any contact that ISN'T intentional or flagrant has to be ignored, by rule.

You can't make the right call if you don't know the rules...or have a clue as to what's going on.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I would have disallowed the basket, and shot the free-throws due to the foul on the other end.

If there were any doubt, I would have counted the basket and ignored the contact. Why reward stupidity?

Best of all, however, is to have no doubt and get it right.

[Mark Padgett]

I've officiated with a guy over the years who says his "referee motto" is "Occasionally wrong but never indecisive".

I told him mine was "Always right and always decisive".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I've officiated with a guy over the years who says his "referee motto" is "Occasionally wrong but never indecisive".

Similar to what our, now retired, local interpreter used to say:

"The best wrong call is a strong wrong call."

[Judtech]

BILLY that is a great motto! I think it fits this situation.
Yeah, we kicked it but we did it strongly!! Talked to the guys today about it and we had a good laugh about writing our own rule! We still couldn't decide if the dunk or foul happened first, it was really bang-bang. But upon further review, we probably should have gone with the contact, disallowed the basket and shoot the double bonus at the other end. We all had plays similar to this but they all had involved lay ups or jump shots. Goes to show working several games in a row can skew your reasoning!! Live and learn and get it right the next time!
JR glad to see you continue to be in tune with my sense of irony!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

JR glad to see you continue to be in tune with my sense of irony!

Methinks you're confusing your sense of irony with your lack of rules knowledge. I'm in tune with that.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Methinks you're confusing your sense of irony with your lack of rules knowledge. I'm in tune with that.

The irony was saying it would have been helpful knowing what occured first. But since we were all caught flat footed on that one and didn't know what happened first we made it up as we went along. We got it wrong, but we did it in such a SPECTACULAR manner, we got away with it!!!!