Let The Fun Begin..

[Judtech]

AAU modified NFHS rules. I am not sure we handled this correctly, but we apparently did a good enough job explaining what we were doing and why that neither the State Police or National Guard had to be called. Which when dealing with some AAU tournaments is a HUGE accomplishment.
Here is the play. (and I thought this only happened in the movies!)
Visitors score with 2 seconds left. V presses while H1 is taking the ball out of bounds. H2 receives the pass from H1 as H2 is breaking hard to the ball. H2 then proceeds to shoot a lay up.....at V basket.....H2 makes the basket while V2 attempts to block the shot and fouls the player hard. (Not intentional or flagrant) 1 second left on the clock....
I know what we did and I'll save that fun for later. What would YOU do?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Judtech

AAU modified NFHS rules. I am not sure we handled this correctly, but we apparently did a good enough job explaining what we were doing and why that neither the State Police or National Guard had to be called. Which when dealing with some AAU tournaments is a HUGE accomplishment.
Here is the play. (and I thought this only happened in the movies!)
Visitors score with 2 seconds left. V presses while H1 is taking the ball out of bounds. H2 receives the pass from H1 as H2 is breaking hard to the ball. H2 then proceeds to shoot a lay up.....at V basket.....H2 makes the basket while V2 attempts to block the shot and fouls the player hard. (Not intentional or flagrant) 1 second left on the clock....
I know what we did and I'll save that fun for later. What would YOU do?

If the basket was already successful, I have nothing. You said it was not intentional or flagrant. If the basket was not yet successful, call the foul and shoot bonus free throws (if applicable) or it's H's ball the spot nearest the foul.

-Josh

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Judtech

AAU modified NFHS rules. I am not sure we handled this correctly, but we apparently did a good enough job explaining what we were doing and why that neither the State Police or National Guard had to be called. Which when dealing with some AAU tournaments is a HUGE accomplishment.
Here is the play. (and I thought this only happened in the movies!)
Visitors score with 2 seconds left. V presses while H1 is taking the ball out of bounds. H2 receives the pass from H1 as H2 is breaking hard to the ball. H2 then proceeds to shoot a lay up.....at V basket.....H2 makes the basket while V2 attempts to block the shot and fouls the player hard. (Not intentional or flagrant) 1 second left on the clock....
I know what we did and I'll save that fun for later. What would YOU do?

It all depends...
Was the foul before the "shot" entered the basket? If so, no score, can't score with a dead ball and continuous motion does not apply, this is by definition NOT a shot attempt.
Was H team in bonus? If so, shoot FT(s) at other end.

What is so difficult about this play?

[Judtech]

I told you this was fun. It was a dunk (not the afore mentioned lay up) both teams in double bonus.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Judtech

I told you this was fun. It was a dunk (not the afore mentioned lay up) both teams in double bonus.

Was the dunk through the hoop before the foul?

-Josh

[Judtech]

Without the aide of slow mo replay, I couldn't say. Maybe I need to get better at judging that but usually when a player goes up for a dunk and gets fouled while dunking I don't judge when it went through the net. Would have been helpful on this play.
If it had been a lay up or short jumper it would be easier to administer. I am sure we kicked it but we live and learn. The first option was calling the play dead no points for V and H shoots the double bonus. However, we didn't think we could disallow the basket b/c none of us could say for sure that the foul occured prior to the basket. We couldn't ignore the foul, because it was a hard play and a hard foul (and a hard dunk) The shooter had not returned to the floor but there was no airborn shooter in play b/c the foul made the play dead. So we counted the bucket, called the foul after the basket and went down the court to shoot the double bonus. Both coaches were rather exercised during this discussion, but before we proceeded we called them together, explained our reasoning and they were both ok with it. (Although the V coach wanted their player shooting the "and 1" but he was joking!) H missed the second bonus shot and the game went in the books.
So despite whether we kicked the rule or not, the story had a happy ending for everyone except the player who dunked the ball at his own basket, then missed a free throw!!

[truerookie]

I would have disallowed the basket, and shot the free-throws due to the foul on the other end.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

1) Without the aide of slow mo replay, I couldn't say. Maybe I need to get better at judging that but usually when a player goes up for a dunk and gets fouled while dunking I don't judge when it went through the net. Would have been helpful on this play.

2) So we counted the bucket, called the foul after the basket and went down the court to shoot the double bonus.

1) Would have been helpful? It's impossible to make the RIGHT call on this play without that knowledge. And you don't need slo-mo to make that decision either. Any half-way competent official automatically looks to see the status of the ball when he calls any foul. All you were doing was guessing...and you're still guessing.

2) Unfortunately, the rules won't allow you to make that call. If the ball was dead(which it is after a basket), any contact that ISN'T intentional or flagrant has to be ignored, by rule.

You can't make the right call if you don't know the rules...or have a clue as to what's going on.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Judtech

AAU modified NFHS rules. I am not sure we handled this correctly, but we apparently did a good enough job explaining what we were doing and why that neither the State Police or National Guard had to be called. Which when dealing with some AAU tournaments is a HUGE accomplishment.
Here is the play. (and I thought this only happened in the movies!)
Visitors score with 2 seconds left. V presses while H1 is taking the ball out of bounds. H2 receives the pass from H1 as H2 is breaking hard to the ball. H2 then proceeds to shoot a lay up.....at V basket.....H2 makes the basket while V2 attempts to block the shot and fouls the player hard. (Not intentional or flagrant) 1 second left on the clock....
I know what we did and I'll save that fun for later. What would YOU do?

I was just wondering, since no one has yet asked, what was the score when this action took place?
Was the home team significantly ahead, such that this player was just screwing around and showing off by dunking at the wrong end or was he legitimately confused?
If the former, I think that it is time to end the game.
Also, if the score is close enough such that the home team is attempting to gain an advantage by scoring two-points against itself (perhaps instead of risking a turnover or missed FTs at the other end and then surrendering a game-tying three-pointer), I would consider an unsporting technical foul.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Also, if the score is close enough such that the home team is attempting to gain an advantage by scoring two-points against itself (perhaps instead of risking a turnover or missed FTs at the other end and then surrendering a game-tying three-pointer), I would consider an unsporting technical foul.

I think I speak for us all when I say:

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think I speak for us all when I say:

I'll wait to see the responses of others.
I believe that more people than you think support the concept of Fair Play, especially at the HS level.

Note: Even the NBE has a rule against attempting to score at the wrong basket. It's counter to the basic intent of the game.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'll wait to see the responses of others.
I believe that more people than you think support the concept of Fair Play, especially at the HS level.

Note: Even the NBE has a rule against attempting to score at the wrong basket. It's counter to the basic intent of the game.

In the first place, to say that to score for the other team is an advantage is, at best, a stretch of the imagination. In the second place, "counter to the basic intent of the game" would mean uh.......? Let's see, like for example, intentionally missing a free throw in certain situations. You gonna T 'em for that?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In the first place, to say that to score for the other team is an advantage is, at best, a stretch of the imagination.

You seem to lack some creative thinking ability.
Coaches are not stupid although they often act in that manner. They will find ways to abuse the rules to gain an unintended advantage. (Recall the NCAA football coaches only a couple of seasons ago who quickly figured out that they could purposely be offside on a kick-off in order to burn a few more seconds near the end of a game after scoring due to the new timing rules? The NCAA even came out and stated that this should be penalized with an unsporting flag, and then fixed the loophole by instructing the officials to reset the clock.)
Given that the game clock does NOT stop at the HS level following a made goal in the final minute of play as it does in NCAA games, it can easily be understood that scoring for the opposing team could be quite advantageous under the right circumstances. Specifically, doing so with a three or four point lead, under five seconds remaining in the game, and the opponent not having any time-outs would place the opposing team in a far worse situation than simply inbounding the ball and playing the game in a normal manner. The reason is that instead of the opponent being able to commit a common foul, they must now commit either an intentional personal or a technical foul in order to stop the clock, if the team not credited with the score simply has all of its players stand OOB behind the end line and not inbound the ball.
You really don't see that as putting the team in a more advantageous situation than they previously were?

Originally Posted by just another ref

In the second place, "counter to the basic intent of the game" would mean uh.......? Let's see, like for example, intentionally missing a free throw in certain situations. You gonna T 'em for that?

Apples to Oranges. Missing a FT or any other shot on purpose while possibly conferring a strategic advantage does not place the ball in a status such that the opponent cannot get it, thus gaining an advantage wholly outside of the scope of play. You cannot fail to acknowledge that a made goal produces the effect of unequivocally awarding possession of the ball to the non-scoring team WITH THE CLOCK RUNNING at the HS level.
The opponent is severely penalized for interfering with that awarded throw-in. There is even an NFHS play ruling making it a technical foul to delay the game with under five seconds remaining in a throw-in situation for the opponent. Why do you think that the NFHS committee made that ruling? Hmmmm.... coaches trying to take advantage of the rules in an unsporting manner!

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Note: Even the NBE has a rule against attempting to score at the wrong basket.

But NFHS doesn't.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But NFHS doesn't.

I'm not arguing that it is a violation in NFHS play such as it is at the NBA level. I'm well-aware that the NFHS does not have a rule specifically against this.

I'm stating that it is against the concept of fair play and therefore, depending upon the circumstances, may fall within the purview of the rule addressing unsporting fouls.