Let The Fun Begin..

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Judtech

AAU modified NFHS rules. I am not sure we handled this correctly, but we apparently did a good enough job explaining what we were doing and why that neither the State Police or National Guard had to be called. Which when dealing with some AAU tournaments is a HUGE accomplishment.
Here is the play. (and I thought this only happened in the movies!)
Visitors score with 2 seconds left. V presses while H1 is taking the ball out of bounds. H2 receives the pass from H1 as H2 is breaking hard to the ball. H2 then proceeds to shoot a lay up.....at V basket.....H2 makes the basket while V2 attempts to block the shot and fouls the player hard. (Not intentional or flagrant) 1 second left on the clock....
I know what we did and I'll save that fun for later. What would YOU do?

I was just wondering, since no one has yet asked, what was the score when this action took place?
Was the home team significantly ahead, such that this player was just screwing around and showing off by dunking at the wrong end or was he legitimately confused?
If the former, I think that it is time to end the game.
Also, if the score is close enough such that the home team is attempting to gain an advantage by scoring two-points against itself (perhaps instead of risking a turnover or missed FTs at the other end and then surrendering a game-tying three-pointer), I would consider an unsporting technical foul.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Also, if the score is close enough such that the home team is attempting to gain an advantage by scoring two-points against itself (perhaps instead of risking a turnover or missed FTs at the other end and then surrendering a game-tying three-pointer), I would consider an unsporting technical foul.

I think I speak for us all when I say:

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think I speak for us all when I say:

I'll wait to see the responses of others.
I believe that more people than you think support the concept of Fair Play, especially at the HS level.

Note: Even the NBE has a rule against attempting to score at the wrong basket. It's counter to the basic intent of the game.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'll wait to see the responses of others.
I believe that more people than you think support the concept of Fair Play, especially at the HS level.

Note: Even the NBE has a rule against attempting to score at the wrong basket. It's counter to the basic intent of the game.

In the first place, to say that to score for the other team is an advantage is, at best, a stretch of the imagination. In the second place, "counter to the basic intent of the game" would mean uh.......? Let's see, like for example, intentionally missing a free throw in certain situations. You gonna T 'em for that?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In the first place, to say that to score for the other team is an advantage is, at best, a stretch of the imagination.

You seem to lack some creative thinking ability.
Coaches are not stupid although they often act in that manner. They will find ways to abuse the rules to gain an unintended advantage. (Recall the NCAA football coaches only a couple of seasons ago who quickly figured out that they could purposely be offside on a kick-off in order to burn a few more seconds near the end of a game after scoring due to the new timing rules? The NCAA even came out and stated that this should be penalized with an unsporting flag, and then fixed the loophole by instructing the officials to reset the clock.)
Given that the game clock does NOT stop at the HS level following a made goal in the final minute of play as it does in NCAA games, it can easily be understood that scoring for the opposing team could be quite advantageous under the right circumstances. Specifically, doing so with a three or four point lead, under five seconds remaining in the game, and the opponent not having any time-outs would place the opposing team in a far worse situation than simply inbounding the ball and playing the game in a normal manner. The reason is that instead of the opponent being able to commit a common foul, they must now commit either an intentional personal or a technical foul in order to stop the clock, if the team not credited with the score simply has all of its players stand OOB behind the end line and not inbound the ball.
You really don't see that as putting the team in a more advantageous situation than they previously were?

Originally Posted by just another ref

In the second place, "counter to the basic intent of the game" would mean uh.......? Let's see, like for example, intentionally missing a free throw in certain situations. You gonna T 'em for that?

Apples to Oranges. Missing a FT or any other shot on purpose while possibly conferring a strategic advantage does not place the ball in a status such that the opponent cannot get it, thus gaining an advantage wholly outside of the scope of play. You cannot fail to acknowledge that a made goal produces the effect of unequivocally awarding possession of the ball to the non-scoring team WITH THE CLOCK RUNNING at the HS level.
The opponent is severely penalized for interfering with that awarded throw-in. There is even an NFHS play ruling making it a technical foul to delay the game with under five seconds remaining in a throw-in situation for the opponent. Why do you think that the NFHS committee made that ruling? Hmmmm.... coaches trying to take advantage of the rules in an unsporting manner!

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Given that the game clock does NOT stop at the HS level following a made goal in the final minute of play as it does in NCAA games, it can easily be understood that scoring for the opposing team could be quite advantageous under the right circumstances. Specifically, doing so with a three or four point lead, under five seconds remaining in the game, and the opponent not having any time-outs would place the opposing team in a far worse situation than simply inbounding the ball and playing the game in a normal manner. The reason is that instead of the opponent being able to commit a common foul, they must now commit either an intentional personal or a technical foul in order to stop the clock, if the team not credited with the score simply has all of its players stand OOB behind the end line and not inbound the ball.
You really don't see that as putting the team in a more advantageous situation than they previously were?

I knew what you meant. If there are less than 5 seconds left and the team trailing does not foul immediately on the throw-in, if not before, then I just can't believe my team wouldn't have just as good a chance in trying to evade that defense for the remaining few seconds than to give my opponents two points.

Apples to Oranges. Missing a FT or any other shot on purpose while possibly conferring a strategic advantage does not place the ball in a status such that the opponent cannot get it, thus gaining an advantage wholly outside of the scope of play. You cannot fail to acknowledge that a made goal produces the effect of unequivocally awarding possession of the ball to the non-scoring team WITH THE CLOCK RUNNING at the HS level.
The opponent is severely penalized for interfering with that awarded throw-in. There is even an NFHS play ruling making it a technical foul to delay the game with under five seconds remaining in a throw-in situation for the opponent. Why do you think that the NFHS committee made that ruling? Hmmmm.... coaches trying to take advantage of the rules in an unsporting manner!

You make valid points, but write a letter to the committee, don't try to legislate this on the court.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Note: Even the NBE has a rule against attempting to score at the wrong basket.

But NFHS doesn't.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But NFHS doesn't.

I'm not arguing that it is a violation in NFHS play such as it is at the NBA level. I'm well-aware that the NFHS does not have a rule specifically against this.

I'm stating that it is against the concept of fair play and therefore, depending upon the circumstances, may fall within the purview of the rule addressing unsporting fouls.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Note: Even the NBE has a rule against attempting to score at the wrong basket. It's counter to the basic intent of the game.

And it upsets the gamblers and bookies.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I was just wondering, since no one has yet asked, what was the score when this action took place?
Was the home team significantly ahead, such that this player was just screwing around and showing off by dunking at the wrong end or was he legitimately confused?
If the former, I think that it is time to end the game.

You can't by rule. You have to first "instruct"(i.e. warn) the player/team not to do that again. You can only forfeit if a player/team repeatedly committed acts which you considered as making a travesty of the game. You knew that.

[Judtech]

Nevada - Score was tied prior to the dunk
Amused - Good point. It also gets played over and over again in slow motion. Just like Jimmy Chitwoods shot in Hoosiers, Roy Hobbs homer in The Natural and I am sure there were one or two in the Gabe Kaplan classic Fast Break!
JR - I'm sure you were not intimating that I base my career (officiating at least) on conning people.
And for the record:
I thoroughly stretch before I pat my own back. As we get older it is more and more important that we stretch before any strenuous activity
The coaches were very knowledgeable about the game. They were very helpful with pointing out 3 second calls, over the back and reach fouls. They were particularly helpful in pointing out to us that every drive to the basket should be an "and 1". Swell guys really.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

JR - I'm sure you were not intimating that I base my career (officiating at least) on conning people.

Nope, I sureasheck wasn't. It should be a learning experience for anybody, as it is any time that you run into one of these oddball plays....or any play that you're not quite certain about. My comments were made for a broader audience.

Jmo but a good option is to always have a rule/case book in your bag and get right into it post-game when everything is still fresh to confirm whether you aced or kicked the call. Doing it with your partners is a bonus for them also.

[Tio]

I like where Nevada is going with this... it is true that there could be more than meets the eye. However, if we take the play at face value, this is an indefensible improper application of a rule. Be thankful this happened in a summer game... ha, ha, enjoy it, AND BE GLAD IT HAPPENED IN A SUMMER GAME.

What seems to be absent in the entire thread is nobody mentioning what the definition of a "try" is. If you know the definition, then you know you can't have a shooting foul from an attempt on the wrong basket.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Tio

What seems to be absent in the entire thread is nobody mentioning what the definition of a "try" is.

Really? Post #3 for starters.
Post #2 even operates under that assumption, even though it's not mentioned specifically.