Utah/Denver Shot Clock Violation

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Did anyone see (or have access to the video) the shot clock violation in the Utah/Denver game at the end of the 2nd qtr? The only part I really saw was the shot and miss by Chris Anderson where (in order):
1) the ball left his hands on the shot attempt
2) the shot clock expired
3) .5 seconds later the game clock expires
4) the ball misses the ring

The officials kept the players on the court and put .5 seconds on the clock. I'm assuming that 24.5 was on the game clock when Denver's possession started. However, based on the order above...in NCAA, time would not be added and the quarter would over correct? Does anyone know the NBA rule regarding this?

Well I don't know why that would be the order in college but in the pros, if there are more than 24 left then the shot clock will run and if a team does not make an attempt or the ball does not contact the rim then we Must put the remaining time up. Seems like a no brainer to me???

What do u mean with this college rule? If both clocks expire before the ball contacts the rim and it ends up not contacting the rim u can still allow the game clock to expire and end the half/game?

[APG]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Well I don't know why that would be the order in college but in the pros, if there are more than 24 left then the shot clock will run and if a team does not make an attempt or the ball does not contact the rim then we Must put the remaining time up. Seems like a no brainer to me???

What do u mean with this college rule? If both clocks expire before the ball contacts the rim and it ends up not contacting the rim u can still allow the game clock to expire and end the half/game?

I believe under NCAA rules, the half would have expired.

And here is a casebook play similar to the player that happened in the Utah vs. Denver game last night.

156. Player A1 scores a field goal with :31.0 remaining on the game clock in the first period. Following this, Player B2 attempts a field goal with one second remaining on the 24-second clock, which does not touch the basket ring. Player A1 secures possession of the ball and immediately calls timeout with: 05.0 on the game clock. What is the procedure regarding the amount of time remaining?
Officials shall direct the clock operator to reset the game clock to read :07.0. When the 24-second clock shows “0” and the field goal attempt fails to touch the basket ring, a 24-second violation has occurred.
RULE 7 - SECTION II - c (2)

157. Team B scores a successful field goal with :27.0 remaining in the fourth period and still trails, 121-120. Team A advances the ball into the frontcourt and with :04.0 on the game clock, Player A1 throws the ball towards the ceiling. Before the ball returns to the floor, both the 24-second clock and the game clock reads zero. What is the ruling?
Officials shall direct the official timer to reset the game clock to :03.0.
RULE 7 - SECTION II - c (2)

[ocreferee]

Here is the Case Play for the NCAA (different from the NBA)

A.R. 33. There are 37 seconds (men) or 32 seconds (women) on the
game clock and 35 seconds (men) or 30 seconds (women) on
the shot clock. Team A uses time before A1 releases the ball for
a try for goal. After A1 releases the ball, the shot-clock horn
sounds. The ball does not strike the ring or flange. The officials
call a shot-clock violation. At the same time as the official’s
whistle, the game clock sounds, signaling that the period has
ended. Shall the official put two seconds back on the game
clock?
RULING: No. The shot-clock horn sounded at the expiration of the
shot-clock period; however, this does not stop play unless recognized
by the official’s whistle. The official’s whistle for the shot-clock violation
stopped play. The expiration of playing time was indicated by
the timer’s signal. This signal shall terminate player activity (Rule
2-10.14). The period ended with the violation. However, in games
with a 10th-of-a-second game clock display and an official courtside
television monitor, when in the judgment of the official time has
elapsed from when he or she signaled for the clock to be stopped to
when the game clock stopped, the monitor may be used to determine
the correct time to be put back on the game clock. In games without
an official courtside television monitor, the official is required to have
definite information relative to the time involved to correct the time
elapsed.
(Rule 2-13.2.c.3, 4-62, 2-10.14, 2-11.9, 5-10.1.c, 5-10.2.a, and
6-5.1.d)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Well I don't know why that would be the order in college but in the pros, if there are more than 24 left then the shot clock will run and if a team does not make an attempt or the ball does not contact the rim then we Must put the remaining time up. Seems like a no brainer to me???

What do u mean with this college rule? If both clocks expire before the ball contacts the rim and it ends up not contacting the rim u can still allow the game clock to expire and end the half/game?

The NBA rule is stupid. So, in the NBA, if I release a 40 ft jumpshot with 1.0 on the game clock and .5 on the shot clock and the ball passes through the hoop after both clocks expire are you going to put 0.5 back on the clock after the made basket? Same concept, right?

The NBA is not recognizing the fact that the ball is still live after the clocks expire.

[Nevadaref]

The two rules are different. In the NBA the remaining time when the shot clock horn sounds is restored and the ball awarded to the opposing team. At the NCAA level the violation does not occur until it is clear that the ball has missed the ring and the time stops when one of the officials recognizes the violation by sounding the whistle. The time at that point is what the opposing team would get.

Why am I not surprised that btaylor doesn't know the NCAA rule?

[Mark Padgett]

Here's the NBE rule:

"If, in the opinion of the head official, the opposing team has a shooter who is considered a league superstar, the clock will be reset to whatever time the officials feel the superstar would need to get off a shot and thrill the fans. The actual time left on the clock must be at least doubled. If the game is nationally televised, the time left must be tripled. If the opposing team is in last place in their division, is the visiting team, is from a small market - and the game is not televised, the officials are to leave the court immediately and ignore the clocks."

[CLH]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Why am I not surprised that btaylor doesn't know the NCAA rule?

What exactly is your point? He was answering regarding a situation involving pro rules. You don't like the guy, we get it already!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CLH

What exactly is your point? He was answering regarding a situation involving pro rules. You don't like the guy, we get it already!

My point is that the guy is irresponsible. As long as he continues to accept NCAA assignments despite not knowing the rules at that level and not attempting to learn them, he makes the rest of us look bad.

Of course, he thinks that he is doing a wonderful job.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My point is that the guy is irresponsible. As long as he continues to accept NCAA assignments despite not knowing the rules at that level and not attempting to learn them, he makes the rest of us look bad.

Of course, he thinks that he is doing a wonderful job.

To this day I have never made a college game look bad or made my partners look bad. U have no idea what I make a game "look" like. You have never seen me referee!

Who is "us"? cause if you are talking about refs as a whole, I'm pretty sure I fit the mold and the makeup of a referee. I believe I have and show respect for all of "us" who wear the uniform.

Are you on some kind of a high horse???? you make it sound like you are so all high and mighty. Where do you get off?

I mean please do tell, if you are a big time DI referee I will apologize right now and go back in my hole. As you notice I don't engage myself in college questions on this forum sooo much. I just get on here and try and learn the rule from discussions. As you can tell, this was related to pro rules so I answered and was, in fact, unaware of the rule for college. Even if I had read the rule for college, I still wouldn't have believed that I couldn't reset the clock cause the word "recognizing" means that I recognize that there is a 2 second(or whatever) differential and that the 35 seconds has expired.

I have not engaged anyone in a long time who has attempted to berate me on this forum, but for you to say I make officials everywhere look bad, that is pure defamation and disrespectful. I would never say anything to anyone like that unless I had actually watched them work and then I would let them know in private.

I take your accusation very seriously. I do this for a living and up to this point in my life, which has not been a long one, it has been my life's work. I respect the people who do it... at all levels and I respect the game and have the utmost love for it. There is not a day that goes by that I wouldn't love to talk basketball and you have virtually just spit at my feet and disrespected me and the job we all love and enjoy to do sooo much.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

To this day I have never made a college game look bad or made my partners look bad.

Since you admittedly don't know the NCAA rules, you likely have and just aren't aware of it.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Who is "us"? cause if you are talking about refs as a whole, I'm pretty sure I fit the mold and the makeup of a referee. I believe I have and show respect for all of "us" who wear the uniform.

Not if you don't bother to study the rules ahead of time and take the court unprepared to correctly handle situations that may arise.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I answered and was, in fact, unaware of the rule for college. Even if I had read the rule for college, I still wouldn't have believed that I couldn't reset the clock cause the word "recognizing" means that I recognize that there is a 2 second(or whatever) differential and that the 35 seconds has expired.

Exactly my point. You don't even know the basics of an NCAA shot clock violation, yet you work these games and think that you are doing a good job. Every time that you incorrectly reset the clock because you somehow got the notion that you can, you screw one of the teams and embarrass every conscientious person who dons the stripes. Simply put, you need to learn the rules, and furthermore you need to learn the importance of actually applying them in a contest. That's what a real referee does.
PS Your convoluted definition of "recognizing" is utterly laughable. You are dead wrong on this point.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I have not engaged anyone in a long time who has attempted to berate me on this forum, but for you to say I make officials everywhere look bad, that is pure defamation and disrespectful.

I haven't written anything that is untrue. By your own admission, in this specific case and several other in the past, you don't know certain rules and are at a loss as to how to handle some basic situations in an NCAA game.
You are the one who is being disrespectful. Each time that you take the court at this level without proper preparation you are disrespecting the two teams, their coaches, their supporters, your partners, and the avocation of officiating. You are saying that they aren't important enough for you to bother to get it right for them. All of their practice time and hours of video study are belittled by your lack of preparation.
What makes you think that it is okay for you to behave in this manner? Hopefully, this is a sin of youth which you will outgrow.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I take your accusation very seriously. I do this for a living and up to this point in my life, which has not been a long one, it has been my life's work. I respect the people who do it... at all levels and I respect the game and have the utmost love for it. There is not a day that goes by that I wouldn't love to talk basketball and you have virtually just spit at my feet and disrespected me and the job we all love and enjoy to do sooo much.

If you actually do take officiating seriously, then you sure don't show it. You need to change your ways and put in the required study time to be able to properly perform you duties. You can't always count on someone else who does possess the proper knowledge to be there and to handle these things for you. When you take that step I'll stop chastising you.

[CLH]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My point is that the guy is irresponsible. As long as he continues to accept NCAA assignments despite not knowing the rules at that level and not attempting to learn them, he makes the rest of us look bad.

Of course, he thinks that he is doing a wonderful job.

How do you know he's not doing a wonderful job? Apparently, he's doing pretty d*mn well. But you personally attacking someone is utterly ridiculous, that's not what we do in this profession. If you think every person who works NCAA basketball is a rule book guru you've got another thing coming. There is consistent misapplications of rules every night by the "big dogs." I've worked with NCAA Tournament officials and saved our butts because I knew something about the rules they didn't. BT answered a question regarding pro rules correctly then asked for clarification on the NCAA rules, sounds to me like he's doing what it takes to improve his rules knowlegde.

BT is not the one who makes officials look bad, guys like you are because of your superiority or perhaps inferiority complexes. I've never had a problem with anyone on this board, but I think your personal attacks are unfounded and do not represent what we as officials stand for.

Just my 2 cents, don't bother replying because I won't go any deeper on this topic...I've spoken my mind.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CLH

How do you know he's not doing a wonderful job? Apparently, he's doing pretty d*mn well. But you personally attacking someone is utterly ridiculous, that's not what we do in this profession. If you think every person who works NCAA basketball is a rule book guru you've got another thing coming. There is consistent misapplications of rules every night by the "big dogs." I've worked with NCAA Tournament officials and saved our butts because I knew something about the rules they didn't. BT answered a question regarding pro rules correctly then asked for clarification on the NCAA rules, sounds to me like he's doing what it takes to improve his rules knowlegde.

BT is not the one who makes officials look bad, guys like you are because of your superiority or perhaps inferiority complexes. I've never had a problem with anyone on this board, but I think your personal attacks are unfounded and do not represent what we as officials stand for.

Just my 2 cents, don't bother replying because I won't go any deeper on this topic...I've spoken my mind.

CLH,
I did NOT attack btaylor personally. I strongly criticized his lack of rules knowledge and his taking the court unprepared. I stated that doing so makes the officials who do put in the study time and strive so hard to administer the game properly "look bad." In other words I criticized his ACTION (or his lack of action). I said nothing about him personally.
YOU are the one who resorted to a petty personal attack. YOU are the one who started babbling about superiority and inferiority complexes.
I totally disagree with the sentiments you have expressed in this thread. I am well within my rights to tell btaylor that he needs to work far harder on his off court rules preparation. I'm sure that he can handle that criticism. Hopefully, he will become a better official for it too.

[bradfordwilkins]

Originally Posted by CLH

How do you know he's not doing a wonderful job?

Maccabi Tel Aviv Coach Gershon told me

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The NBA rule is stupid. So, in the NBA, if I release a 40 ft jumpshot with 1.0 on the game clock and .5 on the shot clock and the ball passes through the hoop after both clocks expire are you going to put 0.5 back on the clock after the made basket? Same concept, right?

The NBA is not recognizing the fact that the ball is still live after the clocks expire.

I am not gonna go into what is stupid and what isn't. I would just like to ask a question:

if a team obtains a rebound at 40 seconds and the defensive team is down 1, and the defensive team opts to play defense, thinking they will have some time to get the ball back, you are telling me that the offensive player can throw a ball towards the rafters sooooo high that it takes all 5 of those remaining seconds and there is no way you can put time back on the clock??????

Like I said, not getting into stupid or not but which ruleset protects the game more and allows less circumvention of those rules?

A Team in the pro game is only allotted 24 seconds to get off a shot and if they do not do that legally then they have exhausted their 24 and are not allowed to take up any more of that time, by whatever means they try to employ whether its throwing the ball to the ceiling or anything else that they may try to take more time off the clock.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

if a team obtains a rebound at 40 seconds and the defensive team is down 1, and the defensive team opts to play defense, thinking they will have some time to get the ball back, you are telling me that the offensive player can throw a ball towards the rafters sooooo high that it takes all 5 of those remaining seconds and there is no way you can put time back on the clock??????

Was it a try?

Originally Posted by btaylor64

A Team in the pro game is only allotted 24 seconds to get off a shot and if they do not do that legally then they have exhausted their 24 and are not allowed to take up any more of that time, by whatever means they try to employ whether its throwing the ball to the ceiling or anything else that they may try to take more time off the clock.

I just don't see how the clock is supposed to have stopped (or be reset to a point) before a violation occurs.