Utah/Denver Shot Clock Violation

[All_Heart]

Did anyone see (or have access to the video) the shot clock violation in the Utah/Denver game at the end of the 2nd qtr? The only part I really saw was the shot and miss by Chris Anderson where (in order):
1) the ball left his hands on the shot attempt
2) the shot clock expired
3) .5 seconds later the game clock expires
4) the ball misses the ring

The officials kept the players on the court and put .5 seconds on the clock. I'm assuming that 24.5 was on the game clock when Denver's possession started. However, based on the order above...in NCAA, time would not be added and the quarter would over correct? Does anyone know the NBA rule regarding this?

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Did anyone see (or have access to the video) the shot clock violation in the Utah/Denver game at the end of the 2nd qtr? The only part I really saw was the shot and miss by Chris Anderson where (in order):
1) the ball left his hands on the shot attempt
2) the shot clock expired
3) .5 seconds later the game clock expires
4) the ball misses the ring

The officials kept the players on the court and put .5 seconds on the clock. I'm assuming that 24.5 was on the game clock when Denver's possession started. However, based on the order above...in NCAA, time would not be added and the quarter would over correct? Does anyone know the NBA rule regarding this?

Well I don't know why that would be the order in college but in the pros, if there are more than 24 left then the shot clock will run and if a team does not make an attempt or the ball does not contact the rim then we Must put the remaining time up. Seems like a no brainer to me???

What do u mean with this college rule? If both clocks expire before the ball contacts the rim and it ends up not contacting the rim u can still allow the game clock to expire and end the half/game?

[APG]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Well I don't know why that would be the order in college but in the pros, if there are more than 24 left then the shot clock will run and if a team does not make an attempt or the ball does not contact the rim then we Must put the remaining time up. Seems like a no brainer to me???

What do u mean with this college rule? If both clocks expire before the ball contacts the rim and it ends up not contacting the rim u can still allow the game clock to expire and end the half/game?

I believe under NCAA rules, the half would have expired.

And here is a casebook play similar to the player that happened in the Utah vs. Denver game last night.

156. Player A1 scores a field goal with :31.0 remaining on the game clock in the first period. Following this, Player B2 attempts a field goal with one second remaining on the 24-second clock, which does not touch the basket ring. Player A1 secures possession of the ball and immediately calls timeout with: 05.0 on the game clock. What is the procedure regarding the amount of time remaining?
Officials shall direct the clock operator to reset the game clock to read :07.0. When the 24-second clock shows “0” and the field goal attempt fails to touch the basket ring, a 24-second violation has occurred.
RULE 7 - SECTION II - c (2)

157. Team B scores a successful field goal with :27.0 remaining in the fourth period and still trails, 121-120. Team A advances the ball into the frontcourt and with :04.0 on the game clock, Player A1 throws the ball towards the ceiling. Before the ball returns to the floor, both the 24-second clock and the game clock reads zero. What is the ruling?
Officials shall direct the official timer to reset the game clock to :03.0.
RULE 7 - SECTION II - c (2)

[ocreferee]

Here is the Case Play for the NCAA (different from the NBA)

A.R. 33. There are 37 seconds (men) or 32 seconds (women) on the
game clock and 35 seconds (men) or 30 seconds (women) on
the shot clock. Team A uses time before A1 releases the ball for
a try for goal. After A1 releases the ball, the shot-clock horn
sounds. The ball does not strike the ring or flange. The officials
call a shot-clock violation. At the same time as the official’s
whistle, the game clock sounds, signaling that the period has
ended. Shall the official put two seconds back on the game
clock?
RULING: No. The shot-clock horn sounded at the expiration of the
shot-clock period; however, this does not stop play unless recognized
by the official’s whistle. The official’s whistle for the shot-clock violation
stopped play. The expiration of playing time was indicated by
the timer’s signal. This signal shall terminate player activity (Rule
2-10.14). The period ended with the violation. However, in games
with a 10th-of-a-second game clock display and an official courtside
television monitor, when in the judgment of the official time has
elapsed from when he or she signaled for the clock to be stopped to
when the game clock stopped, the monitor may be used to determine
the correct time to be put back on the game clock. In games without
an official courtside television monitor, the official is required to have
definite information relative to the time involved to correct the time
elapsed.
(Rule 2-13.2.c.3, 4-62, 2-10.14, 2-11.9, 5-10.1.c, 5-10.2.a, and
6-5.1.d)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Well I don't know why that would be the order in college but in the pros, if there are more than 24 left then the shot clock will run and if a team does not make an attempt or the ball does not contact the rim then we Must put the remaining time up. Seems like a no brainer to me???

What do u mean with this college rule? If both clocks expire before the ball contacts the rim and it ends up not contacting the rim u can still allow the game clock to expire and end the half/game?

The NBA rule is stupid. So, in the NBA, if I release a 40 ft jumpshot with 1.0 on the game clock and .5 on the shot clock and the ball passes through the hoop after both clocks expire are you going to put 0.5 back on the clock after the made basket? Same concept, right?

The NBA is not recognizing the fact that the ball is still live after the clocks expire.

[Nevadaref]

The two rules are different. In the NBA the remaining time when the shot clock horn sounds is restored and the ball awarded to the opposing team. At the NCAA level the violation does not occur until it is clear that the ball has missed the ring and the time stops when one of the officials recognizes the violation by sounding the whistle. The time at that point is what the opposing team would get.

Why am I not surprised that btaylor doesn't know the NCAA rule?

[Mark Padgett]

Here's the NBE rule:

"If, in the opinion of the head official, the opposing team has a shooter who is considered a league superstar, the clock will be reset to whatever time the officials feel the superstar would need to get off a shot and thrill the fans. The actual time left on the clock must be at least doubled. If the game is nationally televised, the time left must be tripled. If the opposing team is in last place in their division, is the visiting team, is from a small market - and the game is not televised, the officials are to leave the court immediately and ignore the clocks."

[CLH]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Why am I not surprised that btaylor doesn't know the NCAA rule?

What exactly is your point? He was answering regarding a situation involving pro rules. You don't like the guy, we get it already!

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The NBA rule is stupid. So, in the NBA, if I release a 40 ft jumpshot with 1.0 on the game clock and .5 on the shot clock and the ball passes through the hoop after both clocks expire are you going to put 0.5 back on the clock after the made basket? Same concept, right?

The NBA is not recognizing the fact that the ball is still live after the clocks expire.

I am not gonna go into what is stupid and what isn't. I would just like to ask a question:

if a team obtains a rebound at 40 seconds and the defensive team is down 1, and the defensive team opts to play defense, thinking they will have some time to get the ball back, you are telling me that the offensive player can throw a ball towards the rafters sooooo high that it takes all 5 of those remaining seconds and there is no way you can put time back on the clock??????

Like I said, not getting into stupid or not but which ruleset protects the game more and allows less circumvention of those rules?

A Team in the pro game is only allotted 24 seconds to get off a shot and if they do not do that legally then they have exhausted their 24 and are not allowed to take up any more of that time, by whatever means they try to employ whether its throwing the ball to the ceiling or anything else that they may try to take more time off the clock.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

if a team obtains a rebound at 40 seconds and the defensive team is down 1, and the defensive team opts to play defense, thinking they will have some time to get the ball back, you are telling me that the offensive player can throw a ball towards the rafters sooooo high that it takes all 5 of those remaining seconds and there is no way you can put time back on the clock??????

Was it a try?

Originally Posted by btaylor64

A Team in the pro game is only allotted 24 seconds to get off a shot and if they do not do that legally then they have exhausted their 24 and are not allowed to take up any more of that time, by whatever means they try to employ whether its throwing the ball to the ceiling or anything else that they may try to take more time off the clock.

I just don't see how the clock is supposed to have stopped (or be reset to a point) before a violation occurs.

[bradfordwilkins]

Originally Posted by sseltser

I just don't see how the clock is supposed to have stopped (or be reset to a point) before a violation occurs.

The violation occurs when 24 seconds have elapsed.

Like btaylor said, this rewards the defense (and is a theme I think when comparing NBA to NCAA rules -- the most glaring example is the backcourt count being reset on a timeout for NCAA but not in NBA).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I am not gonna go into what is stupid and what isn't. I would just like to ask a question:

if a team obtains a rebound at 40 seconds and the defensive team is down 1, and the defensive team opts to play defense, thinking they will have some time to get the ball back, you are telling me that the offensive player can throw a ball towards the rafters sooooo high that it takes all 5 of those remaining seconds and there is no way you can put time back on the clock??????

Like I said, not getting into stupid or not but which ruleset protects the game more and allows less circumvention of those rules?

A Team in the pro game is only allotted 24 seconds to get off a shot and if they do not do that legally then they have exhausted their 24 and are not allowed to take up any more of that time, by whatever means they try to employ whether its throwing the ball to the ceiling or anything else that they may try to take more time off the clock.

What about my question about a made basket in such situations?

" So, in the NBA, if I release a 40 ft jumpshot with 1.0 on the game clock and .5 on the shot clock and the ball passes through the hoop after both clocks expire are you going to put 0.5 back on the clock after the made basket? Same concept, right?"

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What about my question about a made basket in such situations?

" So, in the NBA, if I release a 40 ft jumpshot with 1.0 on the game clock and .5 on the shot clock and the ball passes through the hoop after both clocks expire are you going to put 0.5 back on the clock after the made basket? Same concept, right?"

It is not unlike a FT lane violation. It is delayed pending the result of the try. The violation essentially occurs when the clock hits zero but is ignored if the ball subsquently hits the rim or goes in.

Think of it like this...the team has 24 seconds to release a legitamate try...and a legitmate try is defined by hitting the rim or going in. At the point of release, you can't always tell if it will at least hit the rim or not...so you must wait. But the violation, if there was one, already occured at the time of the buzzer.

I don't think either version is really all that much better than the other, just different.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What about my question about a made basket in such situations?

" So, in the NBA, if I release a 40 ft jumpshot with 1.0 on the game clock and .5 on the shot clock and the ball passes through the hoop after both clocks expire are you going to put 0.5 back on the clock after the made basket? Same concept, right?"

I think Camron covered this in his post pretty much but since you are asking me....:

Plain and simple the team legally attempted a shot in your scenario, meaning the ball either contacted the rim or went in.

By the sounds of the college rule. If a player is just dribbling the clock out and there was supposed to be a 1 second differential and the officials don't hit their whistle or "recognize" it I guess I should say, and the game clocks runs to zeros then the game would be over????

To me and the background with which I've been taught, this doesn't make sense to me to allow a team more than their allotted time in a possession.

Is it possible that the NCAA uses this rule so that officials don't have to worry about knowing the time of possessions and also so they don't have to worry about resetting the clock to its appropriate time? It just makes it easier on the refs? I mean this in hopes of getting an honest answer, as I am not trying to be condescending as it sounds...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CLH

What exactly is your point? He was answering regarding a situation involving pro rules. You don't like the guy, we get it already!

My point is that the guy is irresponsible. As long as he continues to accept NCAA assignments despite not knowing the rules at that level and not attempting to learn them, he makes the rest of us look bad.

Of course, he thinks that he is doing a wonderful job.