Utah/Denver Shot Clock Violation

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The NBA rule is stupid. So, in the NBA, if I release a 40 ft jumpshot with 1.0 on the game clock and .5 on the shot clock and the ball passes through the hoop after both clocks expire are you going to put 0.5 back on the clock after the made basket? Same concept, right?

The NBA is not recognizing the fact that the ball is still live after the clocks expire.

I am not gonna go into what is stupid and what isn't. I would just like to ask a question:

if a team obtains a rebound at 40 seconds and the defensive team is down 1, and the defensive team opts to play defense, thinking they will have some time to get the ball back, you are telling me that the offensive player can throw a ball towards the rafters sooooo high that it takes all 5 of those remaining seconds and there is no way you can put time back on the clock??????

Like I said, not getting into stupid or not but which ruleset protects the game more and allows less circumvention of those rules?

A Team in the pro game is only allotted 24 seconds to get off a shot and if they do not do that legally then they have exhausted their 24 and are not allowed to take up any more of that time, by whatever means they try to employ whether its throwing the ball to the ceiling or anything else that they may try to take more time off the clock.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

if a team obtains a rebound at 40 seconds and the defensive team is down 1, and the defensive team opts to play defense, thinking they will have some time to get the ball back, you are telling me that the offensive player can throw a ball towards the rafters sooooo high that it takes all 5 of those remaining seconds and there is no way you can put time back on the clock??????

Was it a try?

Originally Posted by btaylor64

A Team in the pro game is only allotted 24 seconds to get off a shot and if they do not do that legally then they have exhausted their 24 and are not allowed to take up any more of that time, by whatever means they try to employ whether its throwing the ball to the ceiling or anything else that they may try to take more time off the clock.

I just don't see how the clock is supposed to have stopped (or be reset to a point) before a violation occurs.

[bradfordwilkins]

Originally Posted by sseltser

I just don't see how the clock is supposed to have stopped (or be reset to a point) before a violation occurs.

The violation occurs when 24 seconds have elapsed.

Like btaylor said, this rewards the defense (and is a theme I think when comparing NBA to NCAA rules -- the most glaring example is the backcourt count being reset on a timeout for NCAA but not in NBA).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I am not gonna go into what is stupid and what isn't. I would just like to ask a question:

if a team obtains a rebound at 40 seconds and the defensive team is down 1, and the defensive team opts to play defense, thinking they will have some time to get the ball back, you are telling me that the offensive player can throw a ball towards the rafters sooooo high that it takes all 5 of those remaining seconds and there is no way you can put time back on the clock??????

Like I said, not getting into stupid or not but which ruleset protects the game more and allows less circumvention of those rules?

A Team in the pro game is only allotted 24 seconds to get off a shot and if they do not do that legally then they have exhausted their 24 and are not allowed to take up any more of that time, by whatever means they try to employ whether its throwing the ball to the ceiling or anything else that they may try to take more time off the clock.

What about my question about a made basket in such situations?

" So, in the NBA, if I release a 40 ft jumpshot with 1.0 on the game clock and .5 on the shot clock and the ball passes through the hoop after both clocks expire are you going to put 0.5 back on the clock after the made basket? Same concept, right?"

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What about my question about a made basket in such situations?

" So, in the NBA, if I release a 40 ft jumpshot with 1.0 on the game clock and .5 on the shot clock and the ball passes through the hoop after both clocks expire are you going to put 0.5 back on the clock after the made basket? Same concept, right?"

It is not unlike a FT lane violation. It is delayed pending the result of the try. The violation essentially occurs when the clock hits zero but is ignored if the ball subsquently hits the rim or goes in.

Think of it like this...the team has 24 seconds to release a legitamate try...and a legitmate try is defined by hitting the rim or going in. At the point of release, you can't always tell if it will at least hit the rim or not...so you must wait. But the violation, if there was one, already occured at the time of the buzzer.

I don't think either version is really all that much better than the other, just different.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What about my question about a made basket in such situations?

" So, in the NBA, if I release a 40 ft jumpshot with 1.0 on the game clock and .5 on the shot clock and the ball passes through the hoop after both clocks expire are you going to put 0.5 back on the clock after the made basket? Same concept, right?"

I think Camron covered this in his post pretty much but since you are asking me....:

Plain and simple the team legally attempted a shot in your scenario, meaning the ball either contacted the rim or went in.

By the sounds of the college rule. If a player is just dribbling the clock out and there was supposed to be a 1 second differential and the officials don't hit their whistle or "recognize" it I guess I should say, and the game clocks runs to zeros then the game would be over????

To me and the background with which I've been taught, this doesn't make sense to me to allow a team more than their allotted time in a possession.

Is it possible that the NCAA uses this rule so that officials don't have to worry about knowing the time of possessions and also so they don't have to worry about resetting the clock to its appropriate time? It just makes it easier on the refs? I mean this in hopes of getting an honest answer, as I am not trying to be condescending as it sounds...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

By the sounds of the college rule. If a player is just dribbling the clock out and there was supposed to be a 1 second differential and the officials don't hit their whistle or "recognize" it I guess I should say, and the game clocks runs to zeros then the game would be over????

It is not about recognizing it....they must, if there is any doubt, wait to see if it hits the rim or not. And once it misses the rim, the subsequent whistle stops the game clock...no backing up.

It is about when the violation is defined to have occurred.

In the NBA, the violation is effectively defined to have occured when the horn sounds if an airborne try doesn't subsequently hit the rim....and the clock is brought back to the point of the violation.

In the NCAA, the violation is defined to occur the when the ball misses the rim....not when the horn sounds....and the clock remains.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

To me and the background with which I've been taught, this doesn't make sense to me to allow a team more than their allotted time in a possession.

The question that you need to ask is what are they supposed to do within that alloted time? And what constitutes the "time"?

In the NCAA, the team has 35 seconds to release a try that ultimately hits the rim.

In the NBA, the team has 24 seconds to hit the rim.

Neither is more sensible than the other, just different.

You could ask the same question about why the throwin count stops on the release versus when the backcourt count stops on a pass to the frontcourt.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Is it possible that the NCAA uses this rule so that officials don't have to worry about knowing the time of possessions and also so they don't have to worry about resetting the clock to its appropriate time? It just makes it easier on the refs? I mean this in hopes of getting an honest answer, as I am not trying to be condescending as it sounds...

Most shot clock periods start while the game clock is running. It isn't really that easy to "know" the precise difference between the two without looking at the video or watching the clock when the shot clock buzzer sounds when we're talking about making adjustments that could be as precise as a few tenths of a second.

NBA has had video a bit longer than NCAA. In fact, I'd bet that of ALL the NCAA schools, courtside video is more uncommon than common.

[Nevadaref]

Well explained, Camron.
This entire thread demonstrates btaylor's complete ignorance of how the NCAA shot clock is to be administered. Frankly, I'm shocked that he has reached that level with such poor knowledge of a basic aspect of the game.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Well explained, Camron.
This entire thread demonstrates btaylor's complete ignorance of how the NCAA shot clock is to be administered. Frankly, I'm shocked envious that he has reached that level with such poor knowledge of a basic aspect of the game.

Fixed it for ya.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Most shot clock periods start while the game clock is running. It isn't really that easy to "know" the precise difference between the two without looking at the video or watching the clock when the shot clock buzzer sounds when we're talking about making adjustments that could be as precise as a few tenths of a second.

It usually isn't to difficult to get the game clock when a team first gains control. I work hard to check the game clock right when they gain team control (or when the ball is touched during a throw-in) in order to have a number in my head that I can use to fix the shot clock if it is accidentally reset when it shouldn't have been.

Or in this case lets say that I checked and the game clock was at 40.5 when they gained possession then I know that I can put 5.5 on the game clock if the team still has control when the shot clock expires and the game clock shows anything but 5.5. You could also go to play-by-play for information if for some reason you didn't get the game clock time at initial possession.

You could also check to see if someone at the table could write down the game clock (when you are under 2 minutes) every time the shot clock is set or reset. This way you have information that you could use as a backup to your memory

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

It usually isn't to difficult to get the game clock when a team first gains control. I work hard to check the game clock right when they gain team control (or when the ball is touched during a throw-in) in order to have a number in my head that I can use to fix the shot clock if it is accidentally reset when it shouldn't have been.

Or in this case lets say that I checked and the game clock was at 40.5 when they gained possession then I know that I can put 5.5 on the game clock if the team still has control when the shot clock expires and the game clock shows anything but 5.5. You could also go to play-by-play for information if for some reason you didn't get the game clock time at initial possession.

You could also check to see if someone at the table could write down the game clock (when you are under 2 minutes) every time the shot clock is set or reset. This way you have information that you could use as a backup to your memory

(Noting that we're talking about a difference of fractions of a second when the end of the game is near and the shot clock expires just before the game clock does expire or nearly expires.)

You're still left with your judgement of control vs. the shot-clock operator. The two of you could be off just a little...especially on a turnover or rebound. I'd say that if you're within a second or less at the end, the clock is probably not incorrect....just a difference in judgement. I'd only make a change if is obvious that they didn't operate it correctly.

Also consider that the shot clock operator only has to push a buton when they want to reset the clock upon seeing a team gain control (ignoring the the throwin case since it is the easy case). You, on the other hand, have to see at two events, the team gaining possession and the game clock. Your synchronization of the two events is likely to have more inaccuracy than the shot clock operator.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

...
if a team obtains a rebound at 40 seconds and the defensive team is down 1, and the defensive team opts to play defense, thinking they will have some time to get the ball back, you are telling me that the offensive player can throw a ball towards the rafters sooooo high that it takes all 5 of those remaining seconds and there is no way you can put time back on the clock??????

If a player launches the ball towards the rafters you could easily deem it not to be a shot attempt and kill the play with your whistle as soon as the shot clock expires.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If a player launches the ball towards the rafters you could easily deem it not to be a shot attempt and kill the play with your whistle as soon as the shot clock expires.

What are you going to do if it goes in?