jump stop...travelling call???

[wanja]

Jump stop definition.

What part of jump off one foot and land on 2 is unclear?

Do see the NCAA rule below. The "Did you see that jump stop?" article in the current issue of Referee magazine also restates the jump stop definition emphasizing jump off one font and land on two as follows:

A player may catch the ball while airborne, land on one foot and then jump to land on both feet simultaneously. or may catch the ball while on one foot and then jump to two simultaneously. The key is from one foot alone to two feet together. Any other variation is traveling.


NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
Art. 1. A jump stop is executed when a player catches the ball while moving
or dribbling with:
a. One foot on the playing court, jumps off that foot and lands simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).
b. Two feet off the playing court, lands on one foot, jumps off that foot and lands simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).
Art. 2. A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot onthe playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).[/QUOTE]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by wanja

Do see the NCAA rule below. The "Did you see that jump stop?" article in the current issue of Referee magazine also restates the jump stop definition emphasizing jump off one font and land on two as follows:

[I]A player may catch the ball while airborne, land on one foot and then jump to land on both feet simultaneously. or may catch the ball while on one foot and then jump to two simultaneously. The key is from one foot alone to two feet together. Any other variation is traveling.

And that statement highlighted in red is complete and utter nonsense, as well as being misleading. There IS another variation that isn't traveling. It very conveniently leaves out the third legal alternative---->an airborne player landing on one foot followed by the other. In that case, the first foot to land is the pivot foot and it sureashell is NOT traveling.

In case anybody's wondering, that's NCAA rule 4-70--3(a)2. It's exactly the same as NFHS rule 4-43-2(a). The traveling rules haven't changed in the last 50 years.

Again, all this nonsense is doing is just confusing the hell outa everybody imho. Forget about the terminology of stoopid jump stops and just learn the traveling rules. It's that freaking simple. And if any coach ever questions a traveling call, your reply is just as simple...."Coach, your player established their pivot foot after landing. Then your player lifted that pivot foot and brought it back down again while still holding the ball. That's traveling." And that's also it! End of conversation, turn back to coach, put ball back into play, Adios, amigos!

Lah me....paralysis through analysis again.

[wanja]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And that statement highlighted in red is complete and utter nonsense, as well as being misleading. There IS another variation that isn't traveling. It very conveniently leaves out the third legal alternative---->an airborne player landing on one foot followed by the other. In that case, the first foot to land is the pivot foot and it sure as hell is NOT traveling.

Of course what you described is not traveling. That one line of the article should have been better written and the writer should have left if it out and avoided a distraction.

The point is that a jump stop involves jumping off of one foot and landing on two. Starting with you Jurassic, does anyone disagree with this and if so how do you reconcile it with the NCAA rule definition?

A secondary question is does anyone, starting with you Jurassic, disagree that after a jump stop, no pivot foot is available?

Please answer the questions.

[Pantherdreams]

Whose definition of jump stop are we using to answer these questions? hehehehehe

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by wanja

Of course what you described is not traveling. That one line of the article should have been better written and the writer should have left if it out and avoided a distraction.

The point is that a jump stop involves jumping off of one foot and landing on two. Starting with you Jurassic, does anyone disagree with this and if so how do you reconcile it with the NCAA rule definition?

A secondary question is does anyone, starting with you Jurassic, disagree that after a jump stop, no pivot foot is available?

Please answer the questions.

1) Agreed

2) Disagree. The NCAA rule says "either foot can be established as the pivot foot" under one type of jump stop.

[wanja]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

2) Disagree. The NCAA rule says "either foot can be established as the pivot foot" under one type of jump stop.

Bob, does this quote taken directly from the 2009/2010 NCAA women's basketball points of emphasis change your position?

The shooter may legally perform a jump stop prior to releasing the try if she is moving or dribbling, and with one foot on the court, she jumps off that foot and simultaneously lands on both feet. From that position she may jump and release a try, but may not pivot on either foot.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by wanja

Bob, does this quote taken directly from the 2009/2010 NCAA women's basketball points of emphasis change your position?

The shooter may legally perform a jump stop prior to releasing the try if she is moving or dribbling, and with one foot on the court, she jumps off that foot and simultaneously lands on both feet. From that position she may jump and release a try, but may not pivot on either foot.

Why would it? Bob's referring to one type of jump stop, and this ruling refers to another. :shrug:

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by wanja

Bob, does this quote taken directly from the 2009/2010 NCAA women's basketball points of emphasis change your position?

No.

The quote says nothing about the "type 2" (from 4-44.2) jump stop. It deals exclusively with the "type 1" (4-44.1) jump stop.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by wanja

NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
Art. 2. A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot onthe playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

And there's the rules citation to back up Bob.

And that's exactly why this discussion is causing so damn much confusion. You've got two completely different and disparate actions rules-wise, with both being classified as "jump stops".

[wanja]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And there's the rules citation to back up Bob.

A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot onthe playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

I think Bob and I (and you?) are almost in agreement. I missed the allowable NCAA pivot foot movement after a jump stop from one foot to 2 on the dribble. Even in that case the definition of a jump stop requires jumping from one foot to 2.

Here's what Bob and I agree upon. By NCAA rules definition

1. a jump stop involves jumping from 1 foot and landing simultaneously on 2
2. in the specific case noted, establishment of a pivot foot is allowed


I'm in full agreement with Bob if he can go for: by NCAA rule, a jump stop always involves jumping from 1 foot and landing on 2 feet simultaneously.

How about it Bob?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by wanja

I missed the allowable NCAA pivot foot movement after a jump stop from one foot to 2 on the dribble. Even in that case the definition of a jump stop requires jumping from one foot to 2.

But the problem is, this definition of jump stop, in and of itself, means nothing.
The key to whether a pivot is allowed after the stop is when the dribble ended, if the dribble ends with both feet off the floor, it doesn't matter whether the dribbler jumped off one foot or both.

[wanja]

There is a difference between the NCAA and NFHS rules that I was unaware of. While the NCAA allows a pivot foot in the cited situation, the NFHS does not.


NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

NFHS Rule 4
Section 44. Traveling
Article 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows

a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:

3. On one foot, the palyer may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in that case.

[just another ref]

Actually, I believe the bottom line is the same. The player may pivot only if he ends the dribble with both feet off the floor. Then, if he lands on one foot followed by the other, the first to touch is the pivot. If he lands on both simultaneously, either can be the pivot.

Main difference is NFHS does not muddy up the water by defining jump stop.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by wanja

There is a difference between the NCAA and NFHS rules that I was unaware of. While the NCAA allows a pivot foot in the cited situation, the NFHS does not.

THe difference is NOT what you seem to be saying it is. In fact, both rules agree. These two rules are NOT talking about the same situation

Let's label the actions that are occuring as follows:

A = Airborne
C = Catch the ball
O = Landing on and Jumping from one foot
T = Land on two feet
P = Pivot

Originally Posted by wanja

NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

This situation, using my labels as defined above, is

A - O - A - C - A - T - P (pivot is legal here)

Originally Posted by wanja

NFHS Rule 4
Section 44. Traveling
Article 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows

a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:

3. On one foot, the palyer may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in that case.

This situation, using my labels as defined above, is

A - C - A - O - A - T - P (pivot is illegal here)

Note that the point of the "Catch" is different between these two.

One has the ball being caught after the jump from one foot (pivot allowed) where the other has the ball being caught before the jump (no pivot allowed).

Both sequences are judged the same in both rule sets...they're just written a bit differently.

[BillyMac]

Many believe that the toughest call for basketball officials is the block/charge call. Yes, it's a tough call, especially when the official is unprepared for the play, and the call.

When I'm asked about my toughest calls, I always answer traveling. We probably see a lot more traveling/no traveling calls in a game than block/charges, and speaking for myself, I'm sure that if I broke down video from all of my games, that I would have made the wrong traveling call/noncall more than any other violation, or foul. Knowing the rule and definition to properly make this call is the beginning. Then the official has to be able to properly recognize these "moves" on the court as being legal, or illegal. Just because it looks "odd" doesn't mean it's a violation, and just because it looks like a "basketball move" doesn't mean it's legal.

I think that this thread shows the difficulty of properly calling, or not calling, traveling.