jump stop...travelling call???

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by wanja

NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
Art. 2. A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot onthe playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

And there's the rules citation to back up Bob.

And that's exactly why this discussion is causing so damn much confusion. You've got two completely different and disparate actions rules-wise, with both being classified as "jump stops".

[wanja]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And there's the rules citation to back up Bob.

A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot onthe playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

I think Bob and I (and you?) are almost in agreement. I missed the allowable NCAA pivot foot movement after a jump stop from one foot to 2 on the dribble. Even in that case the definition of a jump stop requires jumping from one foot to 2.

Here's what Bob and I agree upon. By NCAA rules definition

1. a jump stop involves jumping from 1 foot and landing simultaneously on 2
2. in the specific case noted, establishment of a pivot foot is allowed


I'm in full agreement with Bob if he can go for: by NCAA rule, a jump stop always involves jumping from 1 foot and landing on 2 feet simultaneously.

How about it Bob?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by wanja

I missed the allowable NCAA pivot foot movement after a jump stop from one foot to 2 on the dribble. Even in that case the definition of a jump stop requires jumping from one foot to 2.

But the problem is, this definition of jump stop, in and of itself, means nothing.
The key to whether a pivot is allowed after the stop is when the dribble ended, if the dribble ends with both feet off the floor, it doesn't matter whether the dribbler jumped off one foot or both.

[wanja]

There is a difference between the NCAA and NFHS rules that I was unaware of. While the NCAA allows a pivot foot in the cited situation, the NFHS does not.


NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

NFHS Rule 4
Section 44. Traveling
Article 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows

a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:

3. On one foot, the palyer may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in that case.

[just another ref]

Actually, I believe the bottom line is the same. The player may pivot only if he ends the dribble with both feet off the floor. Then, if he lands on one foot followed by the other, the first to touch is the pivot. If he lands on both simultaneously, either can be the pivot.

Main difference is NFHS does not muddy up the water by defining jump stop.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by wanja

There is a difference between the NCAA and NFHS rules that I was unaware of. While the NCAA allows a pivot foot in the cited situation, the NFHS does not.

THe difference is NOT what you seem to be saying it is. In fact, both rules agree. These two rules are NOT talking about the same situation

Let's label the actions that are occuring as follows:

A = Airborne
C = Catch the ball
O = Landing on and Jumping from one foot
T = Land on two feet
P = Pivot

Originally Posted by wanja

NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

This situation, using my labels as defined above, is

A - O - A - C - A - T - P (pivot is legal here)

Originally Posted by wanja

NFHS Rule 4
Section 44. Traveling
Article 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows

a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:

3. On one foot, the palyer may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in that case.

This situation, using my labels as defined above, is

A - C - A - O - A - T - P (pivot is illegal here)

Note that the point of the "Catch" is different between these two.

One has the ball being caught after the jump from one foot (pivot allowed) where the other has the ball being caught before the jump (no pivot allowed).

Both sequences are judged the same in both rule sets...they're just written a bit differently.

[BillyMac]

Many believe that the toughest call for basketball officials is the block/charge call. Yes, it's a tough call, especially when the official is unprepared for the play, and the call.

When I'm asked about my toughest calls, I always answer traveling. We probably see a lot more traveling/no traveling calls in a game than block/charges, and speaking for myself, I'm sure that if I broke down video from all of my games, that I would have made the wrong traveling call/noncall more than any other violation, or foul. Knowing the rule and definition to properly make this call is the beginning. Then the official has to be able to properly recognize these "moves" on the court as being legal, or illegal. Just because it looks "odd" doesn't mean it's a violation, and just because it looks like a "basketball move" doesn't mean it's legal.

I think that this thread shows the difficulty of properly calling, or not calling, traveling.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by wanja

There is a difference between the NCAA and NFHS rules that I was unaware of.

There are absolutely NO differences between the NCAA and NFHS traveling rules. NCAA rule 4-70 and NFHS rule 4-43 are identical and always have been.

What is confusing is the NCAA using different definitions for a "jump stop", with each different definition also being covered by a different rule. Apples and freaking oranges iow. And that's exactly why imo we should just forget about using "jump stop" terminology completely and simply use the appropriate and relevant rules reference instead.

[wanja]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

These two rules are NOT talking about the same situation

Let's label the actions that are occuring as follows:

A = Airborne
C = Catch the ball
O = Landing on and Jumping from one foot
T = Land on two feet
P = Pivot

Good catch and interesting approach. NFHS 4-44-2b (see below) is a closer but not exact match to the cited NCAA wording. Using your approach what do you have comparing these 2?

In the NFHS rules, any reference to a pivot foot after jumping off one foot and landing on 2 says it is not allowed. Unlike the NCAA rule, there is no reference that says it is allowed. I'll try to run this up the flag through my state interpreter to see if we can get a definitive NFHS clarification. Here is how I would pose the question:

Under NFHS rules, is there any circumstance that a player in control of the ball can jump off one foot, land on two and have a pivot foot available?

--------------------------
NFHS Rule 4
Section 44. Traveling
Article 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows

b. If one foot is on the floor:

2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in that case.


NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

[APG]

Is there really this much discussion about the jump stop? The rule seems real clear to me:

1.) If a player catches the ball/ends the dribble with a foot on the ground, jumps, and lands on both feet, then the player can't pivot.

2.) If jumps off of one foot, catches the ball/ends the dribble, then lands on both feet, either foot can be the pivot foot.

Coaches and players refer to both as a jump stop and the NCAA rule defines both as such. It has been my experience that you see play 2 done more, especially off the dribble.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by wanja

Good catch and interesting approach. NFHS 4-44-2b (see below) is a closer but not exact match to the cited NCAA wording. Using your approach what do you have comparing these 2?

In the NFHS rules, any reference to a pivot foot after jumping off one foot and landing on 2 says it is not allowed. Unlike the NCAA rule, there is no reference that says it is allowed. I'll try to run this up the flag through my state interpreter to see if we can get a definitive NFHS clarification. Here is how I would pose the question:

Under NFHS rules, is there any circumstance that a player in control of the ball can jump off one foot, land on two and have a pivot foot available?

--------------------------
NFHS Rule 4
Section 44. Traveling
Article 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows

b. If one foot is on the floor:

2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in that case.


NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

In the NFHS rule you quote, the player has ended his dribble with one foot on the floor. It's the same as the first part of the NCAA rule you've quoted so many times.

In the second part of the NCAA rule you have above, the dribble does not end with one foot on the floor.

You're trying to compare apples and oranges.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by wanja

Under NFHS rules, is there any circumstance that a player in control of the ball can jump off one foot, land on two and have a pivot foot available?

Yes, if he ends his dribble while airborne, the same as the NCAA rule.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by wanja

1) NFHS Rule 4
Section 44. Traveling
Article 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:
b. If one foot is on the floor:
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in that case.


2) NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot)

And you're still missing the point!!!!!!

In #1 (NFHS rule 4-44-2(b)2 that you cited above), The player caught the ball(ended their dribble) with one foot ON the floor.

In #2 above( NCAA rule 4-44(jump stop), the player caught the ball and ended their dribble with both feet OFF the court.

These are two completely different and disparate acts, and both rulesets treat them as such. And both rulesets are exactly the same when it comes to determination of the pivot foot for #1 and #2. You're trying to compare 2 acts that aren't comparable. And that's why you're confusing the hell outa everybody.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by wanja

Good catch and interesting approach. NFHS 4-44-2b (see below) is a closer but not exact match to the cited NCAA wording. Using your approach what do you have comparing these 2?

In the NFHS rules, any reference to a pivot foot after jumping off one foot and landing on 2 says it is not allowed. Unlike the NCAA rule, there is no reference that says it is allowed.

Correct...

....but all references in the NFHS book are preceded with "A1 catches the ball then..." The NFHS assumption is that until the time A1 catches the ball, what happened before doesn't really matter.

...and the NCAA reference being discussed states that A1 jumps from one foot, then catches the ball. It doesn't really matter that it is form one foot. A player can also jump from two feet, then catch the ball, land on two feet simultaneously, and pivot with either foot.

Originally Posted by wanja

I'll try to run this up the flag through my state interpreter to see if we can get a definitive NFHS clarification. Here is how I would pose the question:

Under NFHS rules, is there any circumstance that a player in control of the ball can jump off one foot, land on two and have a pivot foot available?

A player who hasn't caught the ball yet can jump off of one (or even two feet) without restriction. That is all the NCAA rule is saying. The NFHS rule is the same but it is not so explicitly spelled out.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by wanja

By NCAA rules definition

Correct.

However, the term as used by many coaches, players and fans has a broader meaning, so my caveat about defining the term remains.