AP after Jumper Violation?

[Freddy]

Current Debate between Officials Here:
Jumper A1 tips ball then violates by gaining possession of it. OOB throw in for B for A1's violation. Ball is put at the disposal of thrower B1.
Question: Will A get the AP or B?
I say A. Others say B.
I see rule or casebook cause for losing both the OOB and the arrow in a situation when the thrower or one from his team violates when the arrow was previously established. I can't find anything regarding losing both the ball and the arrow due to the jump ball violation in the situation above.
Am I missing something you know I should be aware of?

[tjones1]

A violated.

B gets the ball nearest spot of violation. AP is set towards Team A.

They changed this a few years ago.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Current Debate between Officials Here:
Jumper A1 tips ball then violates by gaining possession of it. OOB throw in for B for A1's violation. Ball is put at the disposal of thrower B1.
Question: Will A get the AP or B?
I say A. Others say B.
I see rule or casebook cause for losing both the OOB and the arrow in a situation when the thrower or one from his team violates when the arrow was previously established. I can't find anything regarding losing both the ball and the arrow due to the jump ball violation in the situation above.
Am I missing something you know I should be aware of?

Old rule/interpretation...B gets the arrow.

Current rule/interpretation...A gets the arrow.

Changed a few years ago.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Current Debate between Officials Here:
Jumper A1 tips ball then violates by gaining possession of it. OOB throw in for B for A1's violation. Ball is put at the disposal of thrower B1.
Question: Will A get the AP or B?
I say A. Others say B.
I see rule or casebook cause for losing both the OOB and the arrow in a situation when the thrower or one from his team violates when the arrow was previously established. I can't find anything regarding losing both the ball and the arrow due to the jump ball violation in the situation above.
Am I missing something you know I should be aware of?

COMMENTS ON THE 2002-03 RULES REVISIONS

JUMPER CATCHING A TOSS NOT CONSIDERED PLAYER CONTROL (4-12-1): An exception was
added to the definition of control by a player when, during a jump ball, a jumper catches the ball prior to
the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper. By rule, and previously reinforced in a Case Book situation, if
a jumper caught the ball on a jump ball, that player had controlled the ball, but had violated by catching
the tap. The committee felt the penalty of awarding the ball and the arrow to the opponent was too
severe. This change simplifies the rule by only considering the violation by the jumper catching the tap,
resulting in the opposing team receiving the throw-in, and the arrow set toward the team that violated.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Current Debate between Officials Here:
Jumper A1 tips ball then violates by gaining possession of it. OOB throw in for B for A1's violation. Ball is put at the disposal of thrower B1.
Question: Will A get the AP or B?
I say A. Others say B.
I see rule or casebook cause for losing both the OOB and the arrow in a situation when the thrower or one from his team violates when the arrow was previously established. I can't find anything regarding losing both the ball and the arrow due to the jump ball violation in the situation above.
Am I missing something you know I should be aware of?

Just to be clear, it's not a violation for Jumper A1 to first gain possession of the tipped ball. The restriction is lifted if the ball first contacts the floor....

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Just to be clear, it's not a violation for Jumper A1 to first gain possession of the tipped ball. The restriction is lifted if the ball first contacts the floor....

That's a good reminder considering the OP is in an area where the officials are debating a rule change that was made SEVEN years ago!

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

COMMENTS ON THE 2002-03 RULES REVISIONS

JUMPER CATCHING A TOSS NOT CONSIDERED PLAYER CONTROL (4-12-1): An exception was
added . . . .

Thank you for this 02-03 revision. I am trying to find where that is stated in the current rulebook and casebook. I thought I had looked everywhere, including where it specifies how to set the arrow, how to change the arrow after it has been set, and jump ball violations . Could this be one of those revisions that never made it in?
Any specific references you know of that I am missing?
Thank you in advance for your consideration of this unlikely though possible scenerio!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by freddy

thank you for this 02-03 revision. I am trying to find where that is stated in the current rulebook and casebook. I thought i had looked everywhere, including where it specifies how to set the arrow, how to change the arrow after it has been set, and jump ball violations . Could this be one of those revisions that never made it in?
Any specific references you know of that i am missing?
Thank you in advance for your consideration of this unlikely though possible scenerio!

6.4.1c

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

6.4.1c

That's it! Thank you for finding what I could not, in spite of my best efforts, discover.
Now if I can only find my car keys.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Now if I can only find my car keys.

Maybe this guy can help.

YouTube - Ode to Forgetfulness

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

COMMENTS ON THE 2002-03 RULES REVISIONS

JUMPER CATCHING A TOSS NOT CONSIDERED PLAYER CONTROL (4-12-1): An exception was
added to the definition of control by a player when, during a jump ball, a jumper catches the ball prior to
the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper.

Originally Posted by Freddy

Thank you for this 02-03 revision. I am trying to find where that is stated in the current rulebook and casebook. I thought I had looked everywhere, including where it specifies how to set the arrow, how to change the arrow after it has been set, and jump ball violations .

Did you try looking up the citation given -- RULE 4, Section 12, Article 1?

I see that Bob gave you the case book play number.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Did you try looking up the citation given -- RULE 4, Section 12, Article 1?

Yes, but I didn't correlate the phrase, "There is not player control when, during a jump ball, a jumper catches the ball prior to the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper..." with the question of which way the AP arrow would be set following the administration of the throw-in for the violation. Still don't, but the casebook nails it conclusively.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Yes, but I didn't correlate the phrase, "There is not player control when, during a jump ball, a jumper catches the ball prior to the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper..." with the question of which way the AP arrow would be set following the administration of the throw-in for the violation. Still don't, but the casebook nails it conclusively.

Because of that exception to the player and team control rules, there would be a violation following the jump ball prior to team control being established by either team. Therefore, you would adhere to 4-3-3a in setting the initial direction of the arrow, instead of using 4-3-1.

That's the consequence of those words being added in 4-12-1 back in 2002.