Can't comprehend this one

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I marked the irrelevant portion of your post. The state instruction on this was very specifically regarding the use of profanity; stating that coaches are not to be allowed to use it towards their players and players are not to be allowed to utter the words in frustration either. And the state has rule backing, whereas your criterion is not found in the book.

Your hypothetical is rediculous, but I'll play along. Did he go get the ball afterwards? I would call this the same as if the player, after getting called for traveling, tossed the ball away to no one in particular. I'll give him a chance to go get it, and ring him up if he doesn't (delaying the game).

I do not think his hypothetical is ridiculous at all. I think it is very valid to those that have not been given specific instructions. Jeff and I work in the same state and we have not been given any such instructions. So if we call a T for this, we would likely have to justify it by someone other than the state. If it is addressed in order to work for someone, I am sure both of us would follow that standard. But the current standard is what we think and not to be overly technical with an action that is not explicit in the rules.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think his hypothetical is ridiculous at all. I think it is very valid to those that have not been given specific instructions. Jeff and I work in the same state and we have not been given any such instructions. So if we call a T for this, we would likely have to justify it by someone other than the state. If it is addressed in order to work for someone, I am sure both of us would follow that standard. But the current standard is what we think and not to be overly technical with an action that is not explicit in the rules.

Peace

Jeff, the hypothetical is rediculous for two reasons:
1. It would never happen. Have you ever had a player throw the ball of his own head out of frustration? I've never seen it, but I have had quite a few players utter profanities out of personal frustration.
2. The direction from my state has nothing to do with bouncing the ball out of frustation, it was all about profanity, so it's not even applicable to my point.

Does the object of the player's frustation have any bearing on how we call unsporting T's? Yes, absolutely. Does that exempt a player from penalty if he's directing it towards himself? No.

And for the record, I'm not advocating you (or jeffpea) go against the prevailing norms in your areas. If a player shouting "sh1t" loud enough for the maintenance crew to hear it in the basement isn't all-but-automatic for you, so be it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1. It would never happen. Have you ever had a player throw the ball of his own head out of frustration? I've never seen it, but I have had quite a few players utter profanities out of personal frustration.

I have seen a kid in a football game hit himself in the head with a helmet because he was being called ethnic names (which were not heard). Touching the ball with someone's own head is not completely out of the question. From my point of view it would depend.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

2. The direction from my state has nothing to do with bouncing the ball out of frustation, it was all about profanity, so it's not even applicable to my point.

I have no problem with that as long as everyone agrees what is profanity.

There are words here that some would be offended by and cannot be used and others would not be offended. So what is profanity and what is considered OK? Some would say "Oh MY GOD!!!" is inappropriate (and yes someone has wanted me to give a T for this BTW) because it uses the Lord's name in vain. Now I am a Christian and I believe in living like a Christian as much as possible, but I am not giving a T for a religious belief, but there are those that think this is out of bounds.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Does the object of the player's frustation have any bearing on how we call unsporting T's? Yes, absolutely. Does that exempt a player from penalty if he's directing it towards himself? No.

And for the record, I'm not advocating you (or jeffpea) go against the prevailing norms in your areas. If a player shouting "sh1t" loud enough for the maintenance crew to hear it in the basement isn't all-but-automatic for you, so be it.

I did not tell you that what you were told was wrong. Just understand that everyone has not been given those directives and everyone does not fell without such directives those are things we need to penalize. If my state or assignors take a different stance I will take it. Just like they have about uniforms in my area and if you want to work post season, follow the expectations or sit at home.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have seen a kid in a football game hit himself in the head with a helmet because he was being called ethnic names (which were not heard). Touching the ball with someone's own head is not completely out of the question. From my point of view it would depend.

Agreed, but it's still different, I see that similar to a kid butting his head against the wall in frustration. Now, if he does some sort of soccer header on the ball and launches it out of frustration, he'll get a chance to retrieve it. As far as I'm concerned, he may as well have throwin it; it'll get treated the same.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have no problem with that as long as everyone agrees what is profanity.

For me, for lack of an authoritative definition, I'm going with the ones that are not allowed to be broadcast over the radio. Those words will get less tolerance and have fewer contexts in which they will not draw a T. Other words (damn, OMG, JC, etc.) will depend largely on context. I'll treat them all similar to if the player had said, "you're kidding me."

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not tell you that what you were told was wrong. Just understand that everyone has not been given those directives and everyone does not fell without such directives those are things we need to penalize. If my state or assignors take a different stance I will take it. Just like they have about uniforms in my area and if you want to work post season, follow the expectations or sit at home.

And here we are, both of us saying we didn't say the other was wrong.

I understand and agree with what you're saying; I was just responding to what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was an unfair insinuation that those who would call the T in the OP were either thin-skinned or "overly officious."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Agreed, but it's still different, I see that similar to a kid butting his head against the wall in frustration. Now, if he does some sort of soccer header on the ball and launches it out of frustration, he'll get a chance to retrieve it. As far as I'm concerned, he may as well have throwin it; it'll get treated the same.


For me, for lack of an authoritative definition, I'm going with the ones that are not allowed to be broadcast over the radio. Those words will get less tolerance and have fewer contexts in which they will not draw a T. Other words (damn, OMG, JC, etc.) will depend largely on context. I'll treat them all similar to if the player had said, "you're kidding me."

That is why I do not use that as a standard. "You're kidding me" would not likely even get a response from me. If it did a T probably would not be the response. And if the standard is TV, they have blocked out a lot of words I would never find offensive or even a T would be warranted.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And here we are, both of us saying we didn't say the other was wrong.

I understand and agree with what you're saying; I was just responding to what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was an unfair insinuation that those who would call the T in the OP were either thin-skinned or "overly officious."

I understand. And this just illustrates why I do not like "automatics." I just want something more meaty to have than what a player says under their breathe or something more than losing control of the ball while being personally frustrated.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is why I do not use that as a standard. "You're kidding me" would not likely even get a response from me. If it did a T probably would not be the response. And if the standard is TV, they have blocked out a lot of words I would never find offensive or even a T would be warranted.

As an aside, I've found it funny that a local station has edited, for example, the word "a$$" out of one song in particular and yet their DJs don't hesitate to use it on air.

I have a good feel for the standards in this area, and apply them similarly on the court; and in all honesty would only apply the "profanity" rule to a small handful of words.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I understand. And this just illustrates why I do not like "automatics." I just want something more meaty to have than what a player says under their breathe or something more than losing control of the ball while being personally frustrated.

I'm with you, and your exampe of the player getting hit in the jewels perfectly illustrates my feelings on why I don't like the term "automatic." In order to make something sufficiently automatic, you have to make it so specific it's meaningless.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Jeff, the hypothetical is rediculous for two reasons:
1. It would never happen. Have you ever had a player throw the ball of his own head out of frustration? I've never seen it, but I have had quite a few players utter profanities out of personal frustration.
2. The direction from my state has nothing to do with bouncing the ball out of frustation, it was all about profanity, so it's not even applicable to my point.

Does the object of the player's frustation have any bearing on how we call unsporting T's? Yes, absolutely. Does that exempt a player from penalty if he's directing it towards himself? No.

And for the record, I'm not advocating you (or jeffpea) go against the prevailing norms in your areas. If a player shouting "sh1t" loud enough for the maintenance crew to hear it in the basement isn't all-but-automatic for you, so be it.

ok....so you don't like my hypothetical...instead of hitting himself with the ball, what if he slapped himself in the face/head area? if striking someone in a combative manner is deemed to be a flagrant foul/flagrant technical, should you call that when a player does it to himself?

as for following the directives of your state association, I'm all for it. in Illinois, a team made it to the semi-finals of the state tournament last year while wearing illegal uniforms (they were only penalized during the semi-finals on the final weekend). none of the nine officials that did not penalize them during their prior games received assignments in this years tournament (hmmm, I wonder why?).

the state association made illegal uniforms a big emphasis this year and required officials to penalize teams and notify the state about schools w/ illegal uniforms....to date 96 boys teams have been deemed to wear illegal uniforms (they have been given a written waiver that they are required to show officials prior to tip-off or face an automatic T). some officials don't want to be the "fashion police" and assess the T, but I say when you're told to do so by the state association - you either do it (and get assignments) or don't (and face the consequences).

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

ok....so you don't like my hypothetical...instead of hitting himself with the ball, what if he slapped himself in the face/head area? if striking someone in a combative manner is deemed to be a flagrant foul/flagrant technical, should you call that when a player does it to himself?

You were right several posts ago when you stated:

1. the issue is whether the display is directed at the player himself or toward the calling (or non-calling) official, and
2. that #1 is a judgment call.

And IMO you should have stopped there. The problem with the rest of what you've said is that it's often unclear what a player is doing by spiking the ball, etc. You seem to want to give the benefit of this doubt to the player. I disagree.

I think it's unsporting to act in such a way that a neutral observer can't tell what you're expressing. Errors are part of any game, and good sports shrug and try harder next time.

So I choose not to extend the benefit of the doubt to players in that way. IMO overt displays of frustration are not part of the game: I'll warn and then whack (and, if it's obvious to me that the display is about me and not the error, I'll skip the warning).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

He's talking about all the officials who call travels when a play looks funny; even though the player never had control of the ball.

Originally Posted by asdf

Yep...

That drives officials up a wall.

It's not illegal just becasue it's ugly.

Yes, and high school officials call more phantom travels than any other level. We can always talk about what should have been called, but to call things that clearly were not violations is not right either and worse.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes, and high school officials call more phantom travels than any other level. We can always talk about what should have been called, but to call things that clearly were not violations is not right either and worse.

Peace

One might consider those game interrupters.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

ok....so you don't like my hypothetical...instead of hitting himself with the ball, what if he slapped himself in the face/head area? if striking someone in a combative manner is deemed to be a flagrant foul/flagrant technical, should you call that when a player does it to himself?

Apples and skateboards, IMO.
Let me change it slightly so it's more applicable.

A1 throws a pass to a wide open A2 in transition. A2 has a layup pending, all he has to do is catch the ball. Instead, the pass goes right through his legs and out of bounds. A1 is furious, and lights into A2 with a profanity laced tirade.

'You dumb-a$$! I've been putting up with your bullsh!t all year, and I'm f$cking sick of it!"

You going to let it go?

What about a fight between teammates?

The reason your example above doesn't work is because there's no rule against a player slapping himself. If you can show me in the rules where it says unsporting conduct must be directed towards an official or opponent in order to be penalized, I'll concede they're similar.