Help me work through a block/charge scenario.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CoachCER

You would think that, right?
That is the call that was made.

Here is where I need help. The coach of B1 is going ape poop over the lowering of the shoulder by A1 on his move to the basket. I will say his move was hard, and aggressive, but to me it looked like he dips to absorb a blow moreso than looking to dish one out.

I need help explaining to the coach why the shoulder is the non-issue if B1 did not establish first.

Here are some comments from the "complaint" sent to me:
"I understand the nuances of the blocking foul on # 3. As I pointed out in my email, our player (#3) should have been charged with a blocking foul, as he clearly was not set prior to the contact. I was not lobbying for a "charge" either, because you can't have a charge and a blocking call symultaneously. My issue is the lowering of the shoulder and aggressive drive into the lane by the other team's player."

This is a little different than his first argument where he wanted the charge, now he is arguing that A1 should receive a foul after his player is called for the block, based on the aggressive nature of the move.

It sounds to me like he's asking for (or about) a double foul, one half of which is intentional or flagrant based on A1's actions.

Take a similar play where B1 gets to the spot late, but A1 punches B1 as part of the move.

It's unlikely that happened based just on the "lowering of the shoulder", but it's possible.

[CoachCER]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It sounds to me like he's asking for (or about) a double foul, one half of which is intentional or flagrant based on A1's actions.

Take a similar play where B1 gets to the spot late, but A1 punches B1 as part of the move.

It's unlikely that happened based just on the "lowering of the shoulder", but it's possible.

I think that is what he is pushing for here.

Talking in hypotheticals, what kind of action with the shoulder would you need to see to come up with an intentional/flagrant on A1?
What if he saw the defender stepping and lowered his shoulder just before contact?
I don't think that happened here, as this player dips his shoulder a lot on drives to the basket, even when not in traffic.

My assistant director was sitting with me, and his take was A1 dips to absorb contact. I personally think he does it out of instinct for no particular reason.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by CoachCER

I think that is what he is pushing for here.

Talking in hypotheticals, what kind of action with the shoulder would you need to see to come up with an intentional/flagrant on A1?
What if he saw the defender stepping and lowered his shoulder just before contact?
I don't think that happened here, as this player dips his shoulder a lot on drives to the basket, even when not in traffic.

My assistant director was sitting with me, and his take was A1 dips to absorb contact. I personally think he does it out of instinct for no particular reason.

It's complete judgement, but there would have to be specific intent to cause contact with the shoulder - not in a way to absorb or brace for contact, but in a way to attempt to increase contact/punish the defender. In other words a clearly intentional act for the sake of delivering a blow.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by CoachCER

I think that is what he is pushing for here.

Talking in hypotheticals, what kind of action with the shoulder would you need to see to come up with an intentional/flagrant on A1?

The rules don't prohibit dipping the shoulder or aggressive moves as such.

Any part of the body might be used to cause excessive contact (intentional foul) or contact intended to injure (one type of flagrant foul). So those are what I'd look for -- not the shoulder specifically -- to call those types of foul.

A simple PC foul is more likely, as it's uncommon to cause excessive or flagrant contact with the shoulder.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by CoachCER

I think that is what he is pushing for here.

Talking in hypotheticals, what kind of action with the shoulder would you need to see to come up with an intentional/flagrant on A1?
What if he saw the defender stepping and lowered his shoulder just before contact?
I don't think that happened here, as this player dips his shoulder a lot on drives to the basket, even when not in traffic.

My assistant director was sitting with me, and his take was A1 dips to absorb contact. I personally think he does it out of instinct for no particular reason.

I will say in almost 20 years of officiating and longer watching/playing I don't recall ever seeing a shoulder like the one you describe that resulted in an intentional/flagrant foul if that tells you anything. It would have to be a scenario where I judged that the shoulder was not part of his move to the basket, but that he went out of his way to seek out the defender and deliver the shoulder to him intentionally - and I mean REALLY went out of his way. More than likely there would also be something leading up to this play that would tip me off that A1 was looking for trouble if I judged it to be intentional/flagrant.

Bob, would you really have a double foul in this scenario where you judge that A1 initiated contact deemed intentional/flagrant? I could see your second example about A1 punching B1 after B1 contacted him illegally, but in this case if the first contact is A1 initiating intentional contact on B2, do you have a foul on B2 also?