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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 08:57am
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Ok.
I like this forum. Good advice and suggestions everyone that typed on the 'Traveling' comments & questions I had.

Player A1 drives lane. Player B1, after establishing legal guarding position, runs beside A1. 8 feet from basket, A1 lowers shoulder into B1 and jumps toward basket. B1 hits floor due to force of contact by A1. A1 continues shot and basket is made.
Whistle on play, BLOCK is called. OR no-call.
Why?

I know a lot of variables come to play here but this is SO COMMON to see this called (or no-called) in this way that I am left confused?
Why would defense be penalized for playing defense?

Help me please. I think I'm right here but I know there is another philosophy that I haven't heard yet...
GIVE ME WHAT YOU WILL...
Thanks,
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 09:01am
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Quote:
Originally posted by jcash
Ok.
I like this forum. Good advice and suggestions everyone that typed on the 'Traveling' comments & questions I had.

Player A1 drives lane. Player B1, after establishing legal guarding position, runs beside A1. 8 feet from basket, A1 lowers shoulder into B1 and jumps toward basket. B1 hits floor due to force of contact by A1. A1 continues shot and basket is made.
Whistle on play, BLOCK is called. OR no-call.
Why?

I know a lot of variables come to play here but this is SO COMMON to see this called (or no-called) in this way that I am left confused?
Why would defense be penalized for playing defense?

Help me please. I think I'm right here but I know there is another philosophy that I haven't heard yet...
GIVE ME WHAT YOU WILL...
Thanks,
Where was the contact made on the defender?
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 09:02am
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Square on the numbers of B1's front torso.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 09:04am
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Quote:
Originally posted by jcash
Square on the numbers of B1's front torso.
Looks like an easy PC/TC foul with defender moving parallel to path.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 09:59am
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The key for me is "lowering the shoulder". In my mind if the offensive player does this then the defender must have pretty good position. When they lower their shoulder, they remove almost any block call from my mind, and it is either PC or no call. If an offensive player drops their shoulder, they initiate the contact on a player that they know is there, if the defense is there allready then it looks like PC to me...
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 11:29am
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Quote:
Originally posted by jcash

Player A1 drives lane. Player B1, after establishing legal guarding position, runs beside A1. 8 feet from basket, A1 lowers shoulder into B1 and jumps toward basket. B1 hits floor due to force of contact by A1. A1 continues shot and basket is made.
Whistle on play, BLOCK is called. OR no-call.
Why?

If the dribbler, A1, beats the defender, B1, so that the defender is now beside the dribbler instead of maintaining his legal guarding postion in front of the dribbler, then B1 has lost his initial legal guarding position. Gaurding principles now have to be re-established. Iow, the defender now has to give time and distance if he wants to re-establish his LGP. If the defender just jumps in front of the dribbler without establishing LGP or giving time/distance, you could have a block- even though the contact was on the defender's torso. Of course, if they are running side-by-side, the dribbler has to continue in a straight line path and not crowd the defender out of his straight line path either.

I think that I'd have to see this one. Anything else is a guess.
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 11:34am
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JR, I didn't think time and or distance applied to a player with the ball, unless of course they are an airborn shooter.
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 12:09pm
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Originally posted by cmathews
JR, I didn't think time and or distance applied to a player with the ball, unless of course they are an airborn shooter.
Bad verbiage on my part. The point that I was trying to make was that the defender lost LGP if the dribbler got by him so that the defender was now besides the dribbler instead of in front of the dribbler, and that the defender now has to re-establish that LGP. To do that, the defender must get in front of the dribbler again, and get both feet down and be facing the dribbler. If the defender doesn't, then it might be a block. I can't really tell from the original description, which I why I said that I'd have to see it.
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 12:26pm
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I think that block is often the easier call with a moving defender, but not always the right call. The better officials get this right more often, newer and lesser officials frequently take the easier and, to them, more obvious call. And since 3/4s of coaches think you need to be set to take a charge, it is an easier sell too!
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 12:44pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
If the dribbler, A1, beats the defender, B1, so that the defender is now beside the dribbler instead of maintaining his legal guarding postion in front of the dribbler, then B1 has lost his initial legal guarding position.
Unless being beside the dribbler keeps the defender between the ball and the basket. If the dribbler needs to shift sideways a little to get to his favorite shooting spot, then he might lower the shoulder and turn into the defender, and this could still be PC.
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 12:46pm
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JR, yep I agree with you and I understand now what you meant.

Hawks Coach, I agree with you also. That is why I use the dropping of the shoulder as an indicator. Like I said above if they drop their shoulder they know that the defender is there, and they are initiating the contact. When I see the shoulder dropped I seldom have a block. There are obviously exceptions, but I usually have either a PC or if the contact isn't too severe a no call... With the no call comes the comment from the offensive coach wanting the call...To which I usually reply, you didn't want me to make a call there, cause if I have one it is PC...
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 01:19pm
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I just want to point out that dropping the shoulder alone is not enough. There must be legal position by the defender. I get "Ref's, he's dropping his shoulder!" I reply, "Yeah, and...?"
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 01:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
I just want to point out that dropping the shoulder alone is not enough. There must be legal position by the defender. I get "Ref's, he's dropping his shoulder!" I reply, "Yeah, and...?"
And here's the gray area.

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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by cmathews
With the no call comes the comment from the offensive coach wanting the call...To which I usually reply, you didn't want me to make a call there, cause if I have one it is PC...
"Coach, there wasn't quite enough for a player control foul."
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 02:24pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
I just want to point out that dropping the shoulder alone is not enough. There must be legal position by the defender. I get "Ref's, he's dropping his shoulder!" I reply, "Yeah, and...?"
yep I agree too. That is why there are a lot of no calls from me on this one...
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