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Old Sun Feb 07, 2010, 02:55pm
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Straddling the pivot foot

Had this a few times over the past few games in both MS and F/JV Boys. Hard to describe but I will try. I also know it is somewhat a HTBT.

B1 and B2 have full court press. As A1 crossed midcourt, picks up dribble. B1 & B2 close in tight. As a result B1 is straddling A1's pivot foot. (A1 has stretched out to pivot around).

By rule, is the resulting contact the responsibility of A1 or B1?
Each player is entitled to their legally obtain space on the floor, but does A1 space extend out when he stretches out?

If B1 does not move forward for a push, can he still occupy the space?
If A1 wants to pivot and trips on B1 legs is it travel, block, charge?

I feel good about the calls I have made/not made when this happens, but am looking for some insight and possibly some clarification.

Most of the time there is a clear choice, but once in a while it is more murky.
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Old Sun Feb 07, 2010, 04:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo96 View Post
Had this a few times over the past few games in both MS and F/JV Boys. Hard to describe but I will try. I also know it is somewhat a HTBT.

B1 and B2 have full court press. As A1 crossed midcourt, picks up dribble. B1 & B2 close in tight. As a result B1 is straddling A1's pivot foot. (A1 has stretched out to pivot around).

By rule, is the resulting contact the responsibility of A1 or B1?
Each player is entitled to their legally obtain space on the floor, but does A1 space extend out when he stretches out?

If B1 does not move forward for a push, can he still occupy the space?
If A1 wants to pivot and trips on B1 legs is it travel, block, charge?

I feel good about the calls I have made/not made when this happens, but am looking for some insight and possibly some clarification.

Most of the time there is a clear choice, but once in a while it is more murky.
Does any contact by B violate principle of verticality?
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Old Sun Feb 07, 2010, 05:31pm
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isn't this the conversation we had a few years ago that ended in defining a "cone of verticality"?

iirc, we defined the player's entitled space as more or less above and below the pelvis. The player standing with one foot extended, has her weight pretty much straight above the other leg/foot. That location is her "space". While I don't think contact on the extended leg/foot is legal, the airspace is available. At least, I think that's the jist of what we decided.
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Old Sun Feb 07, 2010, 05:49pm
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Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
Isn't this the conversation we had a few years ago that ended in defining a "cone of verticality"?
Juulie Downs: Did you mean to say the, "Cylinder of Verticality"?

Or, did you really mean to say, "The Cone Of Silence"?

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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 07, 2010 at 05:56pm.
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Old Sun Feb 07, 2010, 05:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
Isn't this the conversation we had a few years ago that ended in defining a "cone of verticality"?
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 07:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo96 View Post
B1 and B2 have full court press. As A1 crossed midcourt, picks up dribble. B1 & B2 close in tight. As a result B1 is straddling A1's pivot foot. (A1 has stretched out to pivot around).

By rule, is the resulting contact the responsibility of A1 or B1?
Each player is entitled to their legally obtain space on the floor, but does A1 space extend out when he stretches out?
The rule doesn't replace judgment here. If B1 is straddling A1's leg, then any contact resulting from the normal movements of A1 around the pivot will be B1's responsibility. As a defensive stratagem, this move is risky for B.

That doesn't eliminate the possibility of A1 pushing B1 off to gain an advantage, which would be a foul by A1.
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 04:00pm
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
The rule doesn't replace judgment here. If B1 is straddling A1's leg, then any contact resulting from the normal movements of A1 around the pivot will be B1's responsibility. As a defensive stratagem, this move is risky for B.

That doesn't eliminate the possibility of A1 pushing B1 off to gain an advantage, which would be a foul by A1.
I'm not sure I agree. You have B1, standing with two feet on the floor and arms straight up yet you're saying B1 is responsible for contact. Me, I'm putting this one on A1 for gettng themselves into that predicament (as long as B1 didn't get that position illegally). A1 gave up thier right to that space when they stepped away from that vertical space.

Imagine the following play...

A1, without the ball, approaches a standing B1. A1 puts their foot between B1's legs/feet and is passed the ball. Now, are you saying A1 gets to pivot on that foot and make contact with B1 and get B1 called for a foul?
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 04:12pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I'm not sure I agree. You have B1, standing with two feet on the floor and arms straight up yet you're saying B1 is responsible for contact. Me, I'm putting this one on A1 for gettng themselves into that predicament (as long as B1 didn't get that position illegally). A1 gave up thier right to that space when they stepped away from that vertical space.

Imagine the following play...

A1, without the ball, approaches a standing B1. A1 puts their foot between B1's legs/feet and is passed the ball. Now, are you saying A1 gets to pivot on that foot and make contact with B1 and get B1 called for a foul?
A violated B's space. Apples and Bananas.
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 06:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I'm not sure I agree. You have B1, standing with two feet on the floor and arms straight up yet you're saying B1 is responsible for contact. Me, I'm putting this one on A1 for gettng themselves into that predicament (as long as B1 didn't get that position illegally). A1 gave up thier right to that space when they stepped away from that vertical space.

Imagine the following play...

A1, without the ball, approaches a standing B1. A1 puts their foot between B1's legs/feet and is passed the ball. Now, are you saying A1 gets to pivot on that foot and make contact with B1 and get B1 called for a foul?
That's just it: A1 did NOT step away, but kept the pivot foot planted. That's part of A1's spot on the floor, and B1 entered it.

Your case is backwards, since it has A1 entering B1's space.

I think that there's room for A1 to screw up here, as I suggested originally. A1 is not entitled to do the splits, or to claim more than shoulder width space on the floor. But in many cases the responsibility for contact will be B1's (and that's not a very strong claim).
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Last edited by mbyron; Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 06:08pm.
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 06:14pm
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thanks

Thanks for the feedback and discussion.
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 06:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
That's just it: A1 did NOT step away, but kept the pivot foot planted. That's part of A1's spot on the floor, and B1 entered it.

Your case is backwards, since it has A1 entering B1's space.

I think that there's room for A1 to screw up here, as I suggested originally. A1 is not entitled to do the splits, or to claim more than shoulder width space on the floor. But in many cases the responsibility for contact will be B1's (and that's not a very strong claim).
The real question is where is A1' space...over thier foot or over their torso (if not the same)? Several rules place limits on a players space such that a foot extended outside their shoulders is not legal (screening, block/charge, etc.). Why any different for a player with the ball?

If A1's space is over thier pivot foot, does that mean B1 can lean over A1's head/torso and not be guilty of a foul if A1 jumps? I don't think you can have it both ways. They don't get two areas of verticality. Either A1 owns the space above their feet (which one?) or above their torso. There is a lot of ink in favor of it being the latter.
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