throw-in/illegal entry/technical

[StripesOhio]

JVB, 2-person crew, sloppy game

I'm T, tableside...partner the lead. Partner administers throw-in on the baseline. Partner is up to about 2 seconds on his count when the horn sounds and a sub enters the game.

When the horn sounded I made hand motion to my partner seeing if he wanted to kill the throw-in or continue. He opted to play on, then proceeded to T up the player who entered the floor illegally.

Coach went ballistic, was harping us all night long. I think it's the right call considering the coaches attitude (of which I should have T'ed him up when he called a timeout just to chew me out, even though I walked away).

Anywho, we both explain to the coach the rule and he was, again, upset. I said coach, listen...it's a BS rule but it's the rule. The ball was live and you're player entered the game without me waving him in. Coach tried to say I did wave him in which was incorrect.

After explaining again he seemed to accept the decision and walked away.

Overall, it was the correct way to handle it...BUT, as the V crew said--preventative officiating we probably should have whistled it dead and re-administered making the sub wait. Either way, I feel comfortable with my partners call because of the way the coach was acting anyway.

Thoughts?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by StripesOhio

preventative officiating we probably should have whistled it dead and re-administered making the sub wait.

That's not one of the options. If you stop the throw-in, then you have to let the sub in.

[mutantducky]

had the same thing. stupid table. I pass on the T because it happens a lot when the refs have the ball but once the team does and you doing your count I really can't fault you for giving out the T. you guys did you part and it is the players fault. they know the rule to be beckoned.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by StripesOhio

JVB, 2-person crew, sloppy game

I'm T, tableside...partner the lead. Partner administers throw-in on the baseline. Partner is up to about 2 seconds on his count when the horn sounds and a sub enters the game.

When the horn sounded I made hand motion to my partner seeing if he wanted to kill the throw-in or continue. He opted to play on, then proceeded to T up the player who entered the floor illegally.

Coach went ballistic, was harping us all night long. I think it's the right call considering the coaches attitude (of which I should have T'ed him up when he called a timeout just to chew me out, even though I walked away).

Anywho, we both explain to the coach the rule and he was, again, upset. I said coach, listen...it's a BS rule but it's the rule. The ball was live and you're player entered the game without me waving him in. Coach tried to say I did wave him in which was incorrect.

After explaining again he seemed to accept the decision and walked away.

Overall, it was the correct way to handle it...BUT, as the V crew said--preventative officiating we probably should have whistled it dead and re-administered making the sub wait. Either way, I feel comfortable with my partners call because of the way the coach was acting anyway.

Thoughts?

Stripes,
I am not a big fan of "punitive" officiating. It is either worthy of a technical or it is not. If you had other problems with the coach, handle those issues. At the same time, inadvertent whistles can create a real mess -- as you discovered tonight. As Jurassic would say, Rulez is Rulez. At the same time, you had a great opportunity to preventative officiate.

My advice concerning "inadvertent horns" is to blow your whistle to kill the play WHENEVER possible. Do NOT kill the play if a team is on a fast break. But, for the most part, I have rarely EVER seen a situation in which the officiating crew "played through" the "inadvertent horn" with a result BETTER than had the crew blown the play dead.

For the most part, players react when a whistle blows. They also react when a horn sounds. As officials, WE KNOW that the horn is to be ignored. As a coach, I always teach my players to ignore the horn. BUT, the truth is, in 95+% of cases, when players react to the horn (to enter a game), they are taking the correct action. Based on these facts, I truly believe that we should be stopping play in the event the horn sounds inadvertently.

In your particular situation, I am guessing that the player just may have heard the horn, reacted to your "hand motion" made to your partner mistaking the motion as a beckoning on to the floor.

By book rule, since you did NOT kill the play, your partner was correct to call the technical foul. At the same time, as your Varsity crew pointed out, you had an opportunity to prevent a technical foul -- and a MESS for the rest of the game. For the record, I would have blown my whistle. I also would have allowed the sub to enter the game once I had done so.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by StripesOhio

I'm T, tableside...partner the lead. Partner administers throw-in on the baseline. Partner is up to about 2 seconds on his count when the horn sounds and a sub enters the game.

When the horn sounded I made hand motion to my partner seeing if he wanted to kill the throw-in or continue. He opted to play on, then proceeded to T up the player who entered the floor illegally.


Anywho, we both explain to the coach the rule and he was, again, upset. I said coach, listen...it's a BS rule but it's the rule. The ball was live and you're player entered the game without me waving him in. Coach tried to say I did wave him in which was incorrect.

One important thing, if the player entered without being beckoned, it is a T whether the ball was live or not.

What did your hand motion to your partner look like? Do you think the player may have misconstrued it, or did he just hear the horn and enter without even a look?

Which part do consider a BS rule?

[mcdanrd]

[QUOTE=StripesOhio;659145]JVB, 2-person crew, sloppy game

we both explain to the coach the rule QUOTE]

Who was watching the players while you were both explaining to the coach? If you feel it necessary to both visit with the coach at the same time make sure the players are at their respective benches. You don't want a player incident while your attentions are diverted elsewhere.

[StripesOhio]

My hands were up in front of me not in a position that the player would think he's being waved in. The player heard the horn and ran in (like most players do).

I never wave a sub in unless I am looking directly at the table and the sub.

I think the rule is BS for a player entering illegally and a T being handed out. If a player enters just blow it dead and make the player wait for the next dead ball.

Problem is, coaches barely know the rules let alone players. I'm not disappointed at all with the way it was handled. The thing that made the situation worse than it should have been is earlier in the 2nd half a player fouled out. Home book at 5 fouls and the visiting book had 4 fouls.

Then when the V team called timeout and assistant walked over and looked at the home scorekeeper and said in a vary snarky tone, "We do still have a timeout don't we?"

That irritated me the way he spoke to the woman keeping book as his tone was uncalled for. (Later after the game as I was leaving the guy doing the scoreboard said he had in the board only 4 fouls for the player but quickly took it down when he heard of the error.

All in all, I wasn't comfortable with the game but it was incredibly sloppy and the V team coaches were way to irritated and upset with no better of a team they had on the floor.

It was unfortunate the way the 2nd half went for them, but everything was done within the rules and I slept okay last night.

Thanks for the input everyone.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by StripesOhio

I think the rule is BS for a player entering illegally and a T being handed out. If a player enters just blow it dead and make the player wait for the next dead ball.

So late in a close game, A1 is on a breakaway and B6 runs out on the floor from the table (or worse, the bench) you would just blow the play dead with no penalty to team B? Gee, I guess they could do that over and over every time team A is about to score.

Now that's BS.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

So late in a close game, A1 is on a breakaway and B6 runs out on the floor from the table (or worse, the bench) you would just blow the play dead with no penalty to team B? Gee, I guess they could do that over and over every time team A is about to score.

Now that's BS.

Mark,
I don't want to speak directly for Stripes, but I share a SIMILAR (but, perhaps not identical) view of the inadvertent whiste. I made my comments in an earlier post. I said:

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Stripes,
I am not a big fan of "punitive" officiating. It is either worthy of a technical or it is not. If you had other problems with the coach, handle those issues. At the same time, inadvertent whistles can create a real mess -- as you discovered tonight. As Jurassic would say, Rulez is Rulez. At the same time, you had a great opportunity to preventative officiate.

My advice concerning "inadvertent horns" is to blow your whistle to kill the play WHENEVER possible. Do NOT kill the play if a team is on a fast break. But, for the most part, I have rarely EVER seen a situation in which the officiating crew "played through" the "inadvertent horn" with a result BETTER than had the crew blown the play dead.

For the most part, players react when a whistle blows. They also react when a horn sounds. As officials, WE KNOW that the horn is to be ignored. As a coach, I always teach my players to ignore the horn. BUT, the truth is, in 95+% of cases, when players react to the horn (to enter a game), they are taking the correct action. Based on these facts, I truly believe that we should be stopping play in the event the horn sounds inadvertently.

In your particular situation, I am guessing that the player just may have heard the horn, reacted to your "hand motion" made to your partner mistaking the motion as a beckoning on to the floor.

By book rule, since you did NOT kill the play, your partner was correct to call the technical foul. At the same time, as your Varsity crew pointed out, you had an opportunity to prevent a technical foul -- and a MESS for the rest of the game. For the record, I would have blown my whistle. I also would have allowed the sub to enter the game once I had done so.

I made the key statement bold for emphasis. No, you can't blow the whistle in the situation you described. But, my point is that I have NEVER seen in all the games I have played in, coached in, officiated in, kept score in, administered in a situation in which an inadvertent whistle was ignored and the situation turned out better than if the play had been killed by a whistle. When I say "better" I mean better for the GAME not necessarily for one team or the other.

My teams have scored many baskets over the years in such situations. I cannot ever recall conceding one, but it probably has happened. I just don't like the idea of trying to yell "play, play" when nearly all of the players have stopped, anyway.

But, no, you can't (under current rules) stop a fastbreak due to an inadvertent whistle. You CAN use preventative officiating and kill the play in most cases.....but, no, not all.....

[StripesOhio]

Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant on a throw-in, not ball on the floor.

Come on Mark, don't treat us like we're all arrogant.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by StripesOhio

Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant on a throw-in, not ball on the floor.

The principle is the same. A clever coach could use this to his advantage. Last second, team A starts to run their play. Coach B gets a look at what they're trying to do. B1 steps onto the court. Play stops. It's like having a free timeout, at a time when team B could not call timeout.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The principle is the same. A clever coach could use this to his advantage. Last second, team A starts to run their play. Coach B gets a look at what they're trying to do. B1 steps onto the court. Play stops. It's like having a free timeout, at a time when team B could not call timeout.

JAR,
Um, you would need the asistance of the timer. The, uh, clever coach would still need to convince the timer to sound the horn while running the sub to the table.

In your situation, the player stepping onto the court from the bench would result in a technical without the benefit of said horn. Bad coach....

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by StripesOhio

I think the rule is BS for a player entering illegally and a T being handed out. If a player enters just blow it dead and make the player wait for the next dead ball.

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

JAR,
Um, you would need the asistance of the timer. The, uh, clever coach would still need to convince the timer to sound the horn while running the sub to the table.

In your situation, the player stepping onto the court from the bench would result in a technical without the benefit of said horn. Bad coach....

Well, he didn't specify in the above statement, but I guess that was what was intended, right Stripes? You mean only when the horn is improperly sounded you prefer to redo the throw-in and make the sub wait. This is a possibiility. Or just eliminate the horn altogether for this purpose. Let the official see the sub and sound the whistle and beckon. Coach will be yelling "Sub!" whether the horn sounds or not.

[JPaco54]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's not one of the options. If you stop the throw-in, then you have to let the sub in.

Why - I witnessed a game, IW, sub waiting at the table, ref did not let him enter the game, coach yelling "sub sub", ref said, "He can wait there all game if I want him too." Coach said, you blew the play dead." Ref said, doesnt matter, I can sub him when I want to." I thougth this was strange. I thought, like your statemet says, that you had to enter the sub, when you kill the play? Correct?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JPaco54

Why - I witnessed a game, IW, sub waiting at the table, ref did not let him enter the game, coach yelling "sub sub", ref said, "He can wait there all game if I want him too." Coach said, you blew the play dead." Ref said, doesnt matter, I can sub him when I want to." I thougth this was strange. I thought, like your statemet says, that you had to enter the sub, when you kill the play? Correct?

There is no justification in HS rules for disallowing a sub during any dead ball with the clock stopped; unless he reports after the first horn of a timeout or intermission.