PC or did the push cause it?

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Another video post waiting to be critiqued!

B10 takes the ball to the basket where W5 seems to have established legal guarding position on the play, however W11 (I think that is his number) puts a hand on his back. The contact is from the back side isn't a lot, but was it enough to give A11 the foul over a PC on B10?

YouTube - Push and Charge GH game 2010

also anything else you see in the play that the Trail could have done better?

Clark Great video!!

If you are the trail on this play,I have a question.

Were you still able to see in between the players on the drive to the lane?

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Another video post waiting to be critiqued!

B10 takes the ball to the basket where W5 seems to have established legal guarding position on the play, however W11 (I think that is his number) puts a hand on his back. The contact is from the back side isn't a lot, but was it enough to give A11 the foul over a PC on B10?

YouTube - Push and Charge GH game 2010

also anything else you see in the play that the Trail could have done better?

So what was the actual call? Did you and C talk? Details, Clark!

[deecee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Good video. If possible, could you leave a few more seconds on either end of these calls (maybe 5 before and 5 after)?

How about some transistions and zoom ins (like NBCEE it). Also some color commentary would be great. Clark, you have set the bar high, but it can go higher. Climb man, climb.

Oh yeah freeze frames could be useful too.

[Anchor]

We're making it too hard. It really doesn't matter what caused what. There is a foul from behind (that he landed on him is a dead giveaway) and there is a player control charge. Foul from behind ball is still live; PC ball becomes dead immediately. False double. Shoot 2 shots with an empty lane and give it to the defense for a throw-in.

The rules don't give us the leeway for what caused what. Live ball-dead ball is pretty much what we have to work with. That the player crashed the defender with a live ball is of little doubt. When the foul from behind happened (my POV is that it happened prior to the crash) is the only thing debatable. Just because he was fouled doesn't give him a free lick at the defender. OTOH, if the PC occurred first, the rear defender got lucky with a free crash.

False double. But you guys will be the only 3 in the gym that have a clue about what's going on.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Anchor

We're making it too hard. It really doesn't matter what caused what. There is a foul from behind (that he landed on him is a dead giveaway) and there is a player control charge. Foul from behind ball is still live; PC ball becomes dead immediately. False double. Shoot 2 shots with an empty lane and give it to the defense for a throw-in.

The rules don't give us the leeway for what caused what. Live ball-dead ball is pretty much what we have to work with. That the player crashed the defender with a live ball is of little doubt. When the foul from behind happened (my POV is that it happened prior to the crash) is the only thing debatable. Just because he was fouled doesn't give him a free lick at the defender. OTOH, if the PC occurred first, the rear defender got lucky with a free crash.

False double. But you guys will be the only 3 in the gym that have a clue about what's going on.

Just to get your thoughts on a similar false double scenario: what if shooter A1 is going straight up and has defender B1 with LGP to his side. Defender B2 pushes A1 from the side opposite B1. Obvious foul on B2.

Now, the ball is still live and the push from B2 causes A1 to displace and fall on top of B1. What's your call?

IMO, there is no real difference between the OP and my scenario other than your judgement that in the OP the offensive player would have committed the PC regardless of the push...and in that case, the push really didn't put him at any disadvantage, did it?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Another video post waiting to be critiqued!

B10 takes the ball to the basket where W5 seems to have established legal guarding position on the play, however W11 (I think that is his number) puts a hand on his back. The contact is from the back side isn't a lot, but was it enough to give A11 the foul over a PC on B10?

YouTube - Push and Charge GH game 2010

also anything else you see in the play that the Trail could have done better?

Trail stepped the wrong way; no reason to step to the middle of the court. He should have stepped down along the sideline to get a better angle to see between the players. But the Trail did great in not having a preliminary and for closing in on the play after blowing his whistle. But what I really wish is that the Lead would have a whistle and a PC foul.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by deecee

How about some transistions and zoom ins (like NBCEE it). Also some color commentary would be great. Clark, you have set the bar high, but it can go higher. Climb man, climb.

Oh yeah freeze frames could be useful too.

My point is that leaving a few more seconds lets the play develop more and makes it easier for viewing. But I like seeing the videos regardless.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

My point is that leaving a few more seconds lets the play develop more and makes it easier for viewing. But I like seeing the videos regardless.

I was just making a joke. I completely agree with you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

what if shooter A1 is going straight up and has defender B1 with LGP to his side.

How can B1 have a legal guarding position to the side of A1?

Gaurding is defined as a defender legally placing their body in the path of an offensive player.

B1 can have a legal position to the side of A1, but not a legal guarding position.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Just to get your thoughts on a similar false double scenario: what if shooter A1 is going straight up and has defender B1 with LGP to his side. Defender B2 pushes A1 from the side opposite B1. Obvious foul on B2.

Now, the ball is still live and the push from B2 causes A1 to displace and fall on top of B1. What's your call?

IMO, there is no real difference between the OP and my scenario other than your judgement that in the OP the offensive player would have committed the PC regardless of the push...and in that case, the push really didn't put him at any disadvantage, did it?

IMO you have to look at it as two completely separate acts. If the push from behind put the shooter at a disadvantage without regard to the defender in his path then you have a push on the defense. If you also judge that the player was crashing into the defender regardless of the push then you also have PC, but I would treat them separately.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

IMO you have to look at it as two completely separate acts. If the push from behind put the shooter at a disadvantage without regard to the defender in his path then you have a push on the defense. If you also judge that the player was crashing into the defender regardless of the push then you also have PC, but I would treat them separately.

And if A1 is pushed, I'm 99.94315313413% certain I'll judge the push to have caused the crash. If not, I'm 85% certain I'll judge the "push" to be incidental contact.

Now I'll review the video.

[rfp]

3 bodies crashing to the floor and no whistle at all from the L or C? I think the T did right to come in and get this (looks PC to me), but holy cow -- where were your partners?

[Adam]

From the camera angle, this looks like a clear PC to me. The contact from the would-be shot blocker is incidental on this play due to the PC foul.

If there was a push that caused the crash, go with the push; I just can't see that from the angle of the camera.

[biz]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Trail stepped the wrong way; no reason to step to the middle of the court. He should have stepped down along the sideline to get a better angle to see between the players. But the Trail did great in not having a preliminary and for closing in on the play after blowing his whistle. But what I really wish is that the Lead would have a whistle and a PC foul.

You're right that stepping down toward the endline and staying wide would have given the trail a better angle on the contact from behind and the possible PC foul, but I can't fault the trail here.

When the dribbler makes his move it looks to me like the defender is going to stay on his right hip which would make me step to the middle of the floor to see the space between the players and let my L take the secondary defender for a possible block/charge. The primary defender slows down to try for the block from behind which appears to straight-line the T but how are we to anticipate that from the initial action?

If the primary defender stays on the right hip of the shooter and the T steps wide and toward the endline he gets straight-lined, the C can't see through the defender, and the L is blocked out by the secondary defender, and no one sees the potential contact between the primary defender and the shooter.

I actually like that the T stepped to the middle of the floor. I think this call should have been made by C or the L.

[Clark Kent]

I ended up ringing up W11 with a push. Although hard to tell on the video (and maybe I was wrong) but I felt he had a hand on B10's backside. Wrong or right I still don't know, because I agree from the video I don't think the contact on the back is substantial, but in the moment and from my perspective/angle as T I felt like it was.

C was coming into make a call and was going PC on it, but did a great job of holding off.

Thanks for the opinions.

Rich, I'll see if I can add a few more seconds to it for ya.