Flagrant for Words

[doubleringer]

I would have a difficult time tossing someone for words.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

I would have a difficult time tossing someone for words.

Really...one player tells another player "I'll kick your $#%^$% a$$" using a racist/bigoted term in place of '$#%^$% a$$' and you're just gonna write it off as a run-of-the-mill 'T'?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Really...one player tells another player "I'll kick your $#%^$% a$$" using a racist/bigoted term in place of '$#%^$% a$$' and you're just gonna write it off as a run-of-the-mill 'T'?

Why does that have to be flagrant? I agree it can be a T, but flagrant? This is your personal issue, not something that is automatically supported by rule. Which is why the rules are kind of vague (deliberately I believe) on what is or is not a flagrant and even sometimes a T.

Peace

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why does that have to be flagrant? I agree it can be a T, but flagrant? This is your personal issue, not something that is automatically supported by rule. Which is why the rules are kind of vague (deliberately I believe) on what is or is not a flagrant and even sometimes a T.

Peace

What if a kid says to another kid "next time down I'm taking you out" and you just tech him and the coach leaves him in. Then next time down he DOES take the kid out, do you think you have any liability there? Agreed highly unlikely, just for discussion. Any threat like this is "see ya" for me, if only for this reason.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

What if a kid says to another kid "next time down I'm taking you out" and you just tech him and the coach leaves him in. Then next time down he DOES take the kid out, do you think you have any liability there? Agreed highly unlikely, just for discussion. Any threat like this is "see ya" for me, if only for this reason.

Here is the problem with your logic here. A kid could say nothing like that and draw a T from me. I have heard things said here by others that claim they would draw an automatic T from them (which are fine by me) but you cannot decide that for me. I do not need words to give a T. I will and have used body language during a contentious moment as a guide without hearing a word.

I will give a better example. I am an African-American male that happens to work a lot of games with other African-American males. There is certain language that is historical or language patterns that are used in the African-American community that are not easily understood by many that are not African-American. And no I am not talking about the simple use of a specific word. I am talking about a series of characterizations that I might recognized that would draw my attention that might never draw the attention of anyone else, but would do so to me and others that are the same race and culture. And even then I have ways of handling those things without giving a T if the right circumstances occur. That is why I said if you want to give a T that is your right. Specific words are not under the rules as illegal and since language constantly changes that is why you get paid the big bucks to make those decisions. But to be critical of people that do not want to give a T because you want to give a T is not as easy as you think.

Peace

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Here is the problem with your logic here. A kid could say nothing like that and draw a T from me. I have heard things said here by others that claim they would draw an automatic T from them (which are fine by me) but you cannot decide that for me. I do not need words to give a T. I will and have used body language during a contentious moment as a guide without hearing a word.

I will give a better example. I am an African-American male that happens to work a lot of games with other African-American males. There is certain language that is historical or language patterns that are used in the African-American community that are not easily understood by many that are not African-American. And no I am not talking about the simple use of a specific word. I am talking about a series of characterizations that I might recognized that would draw my attention that might never draw the attention of anyone else, but would do so to me and others that are the same race and culture. And even then I have ways of handling those things without giving a T if the right circumstances occur. That is why I said if you want to give a T that is your right. Specific words are not under the rules as illegal and since language constantly changes that is why you get paid the big bucks to make those decisions. But to be critical of people that do not want to give a T because you want to give a T is not as easy as you think.

Peace

I am not trying to be critical at all, didn't mean to come off that way. I was honestly asking a question, if the scenario I proposed were to happen do you think I as an official would have any liability? I think there is a good chance that I may, so I don't think I would take chances in a situation where someone is that explicit. By all means you have to make that judgement for yourself, every official does.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

I am not trying to be critical at all, didn't mean to come off that way. I was honestly asking a question, if the scenario I proposed were to happen do you think I as an official would have any liability?

Liability for what? What if you did not hear the comments? I gave a double T about 2 weeks ago and I have no idea what the players said to each other. And I never claimed it was for their words.

Originally Posted by slow whistle

I think there is a good chance that I may, so I don't think I would take chances in a situation where someone is that explicit. By all means you have to make that judgement for yourself, every official does.

Do you have some legal precedent for this? Is there a court case where an official was held responsible for the actions of a player that said something to another player? Because if that is the case what do you do if you do not hear the comments at all. I realize that we think we know everything as officials, but most of the time I have no idea what players actually say to each other and it really gets hard if you are a loud gym and fans are all over the place.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Really...one player tells another player "I'll kick your $#%^$% a$$" using a racist/bigoted term in place of '$#%^$% a$$' and you're just gonna write it off as a run-of-the-mill 'T'?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why does that have to be flagrant? I agree it can be a T, but flagrant? This is your personal issue, not something that is automatically supported by rule. Which is why the rules are kind of vague (deliberately I believe) on what is or is not a flagrant and even sometimes a T.

Peace

I didn't make mention of anything being "supported by rule". It was a question to a poster who said he would have difficult time tossing someone for words.

[doubleringer]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Really...one player tells another player "I'll kick your $#%^$% a$$" using a racist/bigoted term in place of '$#%^$% a$$' and you're just gonna write it off as a run-of-the-mill 'T'?

Yes. Normally after the T, the coach pulls the kid aside and calms them down. Let the coach have an opportunity to coach and deal with the kid. I think the state and my assignors would not look favorably on tossing someone for words or language.

[constable]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

Yes. Normally after the T, the coach pulls the kid aside and calms them down. Let the coach have an opportunity to coach and deal with the kid. I think the state and my assignors would not look favorably on tossing someone for words or language.

Glad I don't work in your state.

That should be a flagrant. The threat is one thing, but the racial remark is unacceptable.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by constable

Glad I don't work in your state.

That should be a flagrant. The threat is one thing, but the racial remark is unacceptable.

Ha ha this is great. If I threaten to chop your legs out from under you that is one thing, but if I offend your sensitivities you're outta here!

[constable]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Ha ha this is great. If I threaten to chop your legs out from under you that is one thing, but if I offend your sensitivities you're outta here!

I'm not saying I wouldn't eject for the threat- I probably would. I am saying the racial slur is as close to "automatic" as I have.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Ha ha this is great. If I threaten to chop your legs out from under you that is one thing, but if I offend your sensitivities you're outta here!

I wouldn't classify it under "offended sensibilities" or "hurt feelings," but rather "fighting words."

And yes, I'm referring to the "fighting words doctrine" of Constitutional law. Though I wouldn't mention that when I T'd up the offender.

[constable]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

Yes. Normally after the T, the coach pulls the kid aside and calms them down. Let the coach have an opportunity to coach and deal with the kid. I think the state and my assignors would not look favorably on tossing someone for words or language.

what if the kid told you that you ****ing suck? would your superiors be upset at you for tossing that kid based on "words or language" ?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

Yes. Normally after the T, the coach pulls the kid aside and calms them down. Let the coach have an opportunity to coach and deal with the kid. I think the state and my assignors would not look favorably on tossing someone for words or language.

Guess if we ever work together we will have to pre-game that.