Flagrant for Words

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

I might. Along with "fag", "gay" if it's used in an offensive manner, and other such words. These are insults in certain contexts, in the same way that the N word might be. I'm not saying it would be automatic, because I'm not sure there's anything that's automatic, but it would certainly put me in that range.

There are other words that I might react in the same way to, although again it would depend on the context. "Good shot, fatty" said sarcastically by an opponent on an airball, might very well be flagrant. It's the tone of disrespect and bullying that would make this unacceptable. Same would apply to "homo" "fag" and others. Are those words ever said respectfully? Not very often. I'd be looking pretty hard to see if there was any redeeming social value in the situation.

Interesting..I would never say you are wrong, but to me if I have to think about it that much and analyze the context then I am going to err on the side of a regular ol' T before I disqualify a kid and have him sit for another game (mandatory in IL). There are a few words that have that "automatic" ring to them to me, and off the top of my head the only ones that fit the bill are racial or threatening as in "Next time down I'm taking you out". When kids run around all day calling each other names like "homo", "fag", etc, I have a hard time considering them flagrant. Like I said I would never say you are wrong, everyone brings their own set of personal limits to a game ...

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Interesting..I would never say you are wrong, but to me if I have to think about it that much and analyze the context then I am going to err on the side of a regular ol' T before I disqualify a kid and have him sit for another game (mandatory in IL). There are a few words that have that "automatic" ring to them to me, and off the top of my head the only ones that fit the bill are racial or threatening as in "Next time down I'm taking you out". When kids run around all day calling each other names like "homo", "fag", etc, I have a hard time considering them flagrant. Like I said I would never say you are wrong, everyone brings their own set of personal limits to a game ...

I'm not saying that it would take me very long in the heat of battle, although I know I tend to be a little touchy about this subject since I have a daughter who is a lesbian, and a son who is gay. So I'd call the T right off, and then be contemplating on the way to the table whether or not it's flagrant. Wouldn't take more than a second or two -- tone of voice, look in eye, reaction of the player who "took" the insult.

Furthermore, I don't like it that kids run around all day calling each other "homo" and "fag". I know the theories that it's all in good fun, but I don't buy it. Even before my kids came out, and for my other two who aren't, they know that this kind of "making fun" is NOT ever okay. There's just too much risk of hurting someone else.

Still, I can't control what kids do most of the time. But it's going to be sharply limited when I'm in charge. Just like the F word. Some refs barely notice. For others, it's automatic. For me this subject is right up there near the top of the list.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

I'm not saying that it would take me very long in the heat of battle, although I know I tend to be a little touchy about this subject since I have a daughter who is a lesbian, and a son who is gay. So I'd call the T right off, and then be contemplating on the way to the table whether or not it's flagrant. Wouldn't take more than a second or two -- tone of voice, look in eye, reaction of the player who "took" the insult.

Furthermore, I don't like it that kids run around all day calling each other "homo" and "fag". I know the theories that it's all in good fun, but I don't buy it. Even before my kids came out, and for my other two who aren't, they know that this kind of "making fun" is NOT ever okay. There's just too much risk of hurting someone else.

Still, I can't control what kids do most of the time. But it's going to be sharply limited when I'm in charge. Just like the F word. Some refs barely notice. For others, it's automatic. For me this subject is right up there near the top of the list.

And it's not based on my own personal touchiness about how it hurts MY feelings. I had a kid call me a "lesbian" one time, and he meant it as an insult. I looked, and ran past. Next dead ball, his teammate said, "Didn't you hear him call you a lesbian?" I said, "yes". He said, "Aren't you going to give him a T?" I said, "What for?" He said, "Well, he insulted you." I said, "So?" He said, "You mean you are one?" I said, "Well, no, but I don't see it as an insult." They were all baffled! Usually, if the kid MEANS to insult, I would whack just on the tone of voice, but in this case, I think the lesson was better taught in the way I handled it.

[Mark Padgett]

Juulie - what if the kid had said, "You ref like a girl"? Oh wait - never mind.

[JRutledge]

Words to me always have to have a context in order for me to give Ts in the first place. Players talking to each other is going to be treated differently than players talking to opponents. That does not mean these things will not be addressed, but you can warn at certain times that can stop a lot of these things from happening in the first place. I think this is such a personal thing and somethings that would be viewed as offensive would be OK to others.

Peace

[doubleringer]

I would have a difficult time tossing someone for words.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

I would have a difficult time tossing someone for words.

Really...one player tells another player "I'll kick your $#%^$% a$$" using a racist/bigoted term in place of '$#%^$% a$$' and you're just gonna write it off as a run-of-the-mill 'T'?

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Words to me always have to have a context in order for me to give Ts in the first place. Players talking to each other is going to be treated differently than players talking to opponents. That does not mean these things will not be addressed, but you can warn at certain times that can stop a lot of these things from happening in the first place. I think this is such a personal thing and somethings that would be viewed as offensive would be OK to others.

Peace

Context for me ,also.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

I'm not saying that it would take me very long in the heat of battle, although I know I tend to be a little touchy about this subject since I have a daughter who is a lesbian, and a son who is gay. So I'd call the T right off, and then be contemplating on the way to the table whether or not it's flagrant. Wouldn't take more than a second or two -- tone of voice, look in eye, reaction of the player who "took" the insult.

Furthermore, I don't like it that kids run around all day calling each other "homo" and "fag". I know the theories that it's all in good fun, but I don't buy it. Even before my kids came out, and for my other two who aren't, they know that this kind of "making fun" is NOT ever okay. There's just too much risk of hurting someone else.

Still, I can't control what kids do most of the time. But it's going to be sharply limited when I'm in charge. Just like the F word. Some refs barely notice. For others, it's automatic. For me this subject is right up there near the top of the list.

Totally understand, that's your prerogative. If I was working with you and you ran a kid for that I would stand behind you, although you would fill out the report. Just goes to show that players need to be careful, what flies with one official isn't going to necessarily fly with another, and you aren't going to get any sympathy with "the last ref didn't throw me out for that!"