Flagrant for Words

[Juulie Downs]

In reply to the OP, I agree with the part about threats of bodily harm, and racial statements. I would also like to add "offensive gender statements" to the list. A certain amount of teasing with regard to gender or sexual preferences is accepted among friends, but it must be absolutely zero between opponents, imo. Even if the individuals involved are friends off the court, it's risky in a game, in the same way that certain offensive racial statements would be.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

In reply to the OP, I agree with the part about threats of bodily harm, and racial statements. I would also like to add "offensive gender statements" to the list. A certain amount of teasing with regard to gender or sexual preferences is accepted among friends, but it must be absolutely zero between opponents, imo. Even if the individuals involved are friends off the court, it's risky in a game, in the same way that certain offensive racial statements would be.

Just for clarity, are you saying that if a player called another player a "homo" you would go flagrant?

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Just for clarity, are you saying that if a player called another player a "homo" you would go flagrant?

I might. Along with "fag", "gay" if it's used in an offensive manner, and other such words. These are insults in certain contexts, in the same way that the N word might be. I'm not saying it would be automatic, because I'm not sure there's anything that's automatic, but it would certainly put me in that range.

There are other words that I might react in the same way to, although again it would depend on the context. "Good shot, fatty" said sarcastically by an opponent on an airball, might very well be flagrant. It's the tone of disrespect and bullying that would make this unacceptable. Same would apply to "homo" "fag" and others. Are those words ever said respectfully? Not very often. I'd be looking pretty hard to see if there was any redeeming social value in the situation.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

I might. Along with "fag", "gay" if it's used in an offensive manner, and other such words. These are insults in certain contexts, in the same way that the N word might be. I'm not saying it would be automatic, because I'm not sure there's anything that's automatic, but it would certainly put me in that range.

There are other words that I might react in the same way to, although again it would depend on the context. "Good shot, fatty" said sarcastically by an opponent on an airball, might very well be flagrant. It's the tone of disrespect and bullying that would make this unacceptable. Same would apply to "homo" "fag" and others. Are those words ever said respectfully? Not very often. I'd be looking pretty hard to see if there was any redeeming social value in the situation.

Interesting..I would never say you are wrong, but to me if I have to think about it that much and analyze the context then I am going to err on the side of a regular ol' T before I disqualify a kid and have him sit for another game (mandatory in IL). There are a few words that have that "automatic" ring to them to me, and off the top of my head the only ones that fit the bill are racial or threatening as in "Next time down I'm taking you out". When kids run around all day calling each other names like "homo", "fag", etc, I have a hard time considering them flagrant. Like I said I would never say you are wrong, everyone brings their own set of personal limits to a game ...

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Interesting..I would never say you are wrong, but to me if I have to think about it that much and analyze the context then I am going to err on the side of a regular ol' T before I disqualify a kid and have him sit for another game (mandatory in IL). There are a few words that have that "automatic" ring to them to me, and off the top of my head the only ones that fit the bill are racial or threatening as in "Next time down I'm taking you out". When kids run around all day calling each other names like "homo", "fag", etc, I have a hard time considering them flagrant. Like I said I would never say you are wrong, everyone brings their own set of personal limits to a game ...

I'm not saying that it would take me very long in the heat of battle, although I know I tend to be a little touchy about this subject since I have a daughter who is a lesbian, and a son who is gay. So I'd call the T right off, and then be contemplating on the way to the table whether or not it's flagrant. Wouldn't take more than a second or two -- tone of voice, look in eye, reaction of the player who "took" the insult.

Furthermore, I don't like it that kids run around all day calling each other "homo" and "fag". I know the theories that it's all in good fun, but I don't buy it. Even before my kids came out, and for my other two who aren't, they know that this kind of "making fun" is NOT ever okay. There's just too much risk of hurting someone else.

Still, I can't control what kids do most of the time. But it's going to be sharply limited when I'm in charge. Just like the F word. Some refs barely notice. For others, it's automatic. For me this subject is right up there near the top of the list.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

I'm not saying that it would take me very long in the heat of battle, although I know I tend to be a little touchy about this subject since I have a daughter who is a lesbian, and a son who is gay. So I'd call the T right off, and then be contemplating on the way to the table whether or not it's flagrant. Wouldn't take more than a second or two -- tone of voice, look in eye, reaction of the player who "took" the insult.

Furthermore, I don't like it that kids run around all day calling each other "homo" and "fag". I know the theories that it's all in good fun, but I don't buy it. Even before my kids came out, and for my other two who aren't, they know that this kind of "making fun" is NOT ever okay. There's just too much risk of hurting someone else.

Still, I can't control what kids do most of the time. But it's going to be sharply limited when I'm in charge. Just like the F word. Some refs barely notice. For others, it's automatic. For me this subject is right up there near the top of the list.

And it's not based on my own personal touchiness about how it hurts MY feelings. I had a kid call me a "lesbian" one time, and he meant it as an insult. I looked, and ran past. Next dead ball, his teammate said, "Didn't you hear him call you a lesbian?" I said, "yes". He said, "Aren't you going to give him a T?" I said, "What for?" He said, "Well, he insulted you." I said, "So?" He said, "You mean you are one?" I said, "Well, no, but I don't see it as an insult." They were all baffled! Usually, if the kid MEANS to insult, I would whack just on the tone of voice, but in this case, I think the lesson was better taught in the way I handled it.

[Mark Padgett]

Juulie - what if the kid had said, "You ref like a girl"? Oh wait - never mind.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

I'm not saying that it would take me very long in the heat of battle, although I know I tend to be a little touchy about this subject since I have a daughter who is a lesbian, and a son who is gay. So I'd call the T right off, and then be contemplating on the way to the table whether or not it's flagrant. Wouldn't take more than a second or two -- tone of voice, look in eye, reaction of the player who "took" the insult.

Furthermore, I don't like it that kids run around all day calling each other "homo" and "fag". I know the theories that it's all in good fun, but I don't buy it. Even before my kids came out, and for my other two who aren't, they know that this kind of "making fun" is NOT ever okay. There's just too much risk of hurting someone else.

Still, I can't control what kids do most of the time. But it's going to be sharply limited when I'm in charge. Just like the F word. Some refs barely notice. For others, it's automatic. For me this subject is right up there near the top of the list.

Totally understand, that's your prerogative. If I was working with you and you ran a kid for that I would stand behind you, although you would fill out the report. Just goes to show that players need to be careful, what flies with one official isn't going to necessarily fly with another, and you aren't going to get any sympathy with "the last ref didn't throw me out for that!"

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

I might. Along with "fag", "gay" if it's used in an offensive manner, and other such words.

What if a player called another player "hetero" or "straight"? In an offensive manner, of course?

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by DLH17

What if a player called another player "hetero" or "straight"? In an offensive manner, of course?

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Seriously!

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by DLH17

What if a player called another player "hetero" or "straight"? In an offensive manner, of course?

LOL!! You have a cute sense of humor...

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

In reply to the OP, I agree with the part about threats of bodily harm, and racial statements. I would also like to add "offensive gender statements" to the list. A certain amount of teasing with regard to gender or sexual preferences is accepted among friends, but it must be absolutely zero between opponents, imo. Even if the individuals involved are friends off the court, it's risky in a game, in the same way that certain offensive racial statements would be.

Local listing...we have a state HS association rule against anything like this. Makes our jobs simple. We read the policy, which tells them that this is their warning, and what the penalty is, to the teams&coaches (part of our pre-game). Anything of this nature happens, its a T and an ejection and we're backed 100% by the state HS association.
Again...local listing.