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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 09:33pm
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Flagrant and Ejection

8th grade girls last night. Both teams in double bonus. H up 2, inbounding following made basket. V is pressing and as H1 takes the ball down the sideline in front of the table, V1 runs up behind H1 and pushes her, 2 hands in the middle of the back, driving her to the floor. I hit the whistle and signal intentional foula dn go to report. as I indicate that the girl is ejection, V coach tells me "Not a problem; she's done." He then began forceful coaching of the girl on what she had done wrong. Taht was nice to see.

We administered 2 FT with lane clear and had H! throw in at the POI.

Two questions: Should there have been more FTs? I said no since it was one act. My partner later thought 2 additional FTs (double bonus plus flagrant). I told him I was pretty sure we did it right, but I would check. (We both feel we are getting better on our mechanics and take whatever opportunity we can to reinforce that are doing things the right way.)
Secondly, what is the proper mechanic in this situation? I've called interntional before, but never a flagrant and ejection.

Thanks in advance.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 10:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkohls View Post
8th grade girls last night. Both teams in double bonus. H up 2, inbounding following made basket. V is pressing and as H1 takes the ball down the sideline in front of the table, V1 runs up behind H1 and pushes her, 2 hands in the middle of the back, driving her to the floor. I hit the whistle and signal intentional foula dn go to report. as I indicate that the girl is ejection, V coach tells me "Not a problem; she's done." He then began forceful coaching of the girl on what she had done wrong. Taht was nice to see.

We administered 2 FT with lane clear and had H! throw in at the POI.

Two questions: Should there have been more FTs? I said no since it was one act. My partner later thought 2 additional FTs (double bonus plus flagrant). I told him I was pretty sure we did it right, but I would check. (We both feel we are getting better on our mechanics and take whatever opportunity we can to reinforce that are doing things the right way.)
Secondly, what is the proper mechanic in this situation? I've called interntional before, but never a flagrant and ejection.

Thanks in advance.
POI, or spot nearest of violation???? POI shouldn't be a factor.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 10:27pm
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Nearest Violation. Dribbler was fouled just past division line and that is where we did the throw in.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 10:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkohls View Post
8th grade girls last night. Both teams in double bonus. H up 2, inbounding following made basket. V is pressing and as H1 takes the ball down the sideline in front of the table, V1 runs up behind H1 and pushes her, 2 hands in the middle of the back, driving her to the floor. I hit the whistle and signal intentional foula dn go to report. as I indicate that the girl is ejection, V coach tells me "Not a problem; she's done." He then began forceful coaching of the girl on what she had done wrong. Taht was nice to see.

We administered 2 FT with lane clear and had H! throw in at the POI.

Two questions: Should there have been more FTs? I said no since it was one act. My partner later thought 2 additional FTs (double bonus plus flagrant). I told him I was pretty sure we did it right, but I would check. (We both feel we are getting better on our mechanics and take whatever opportunity we can to reinforce that are doing things the right way.)
Secondly, what is the proper mechanic in this situation? I've called interntional before, but never a flagrant and ejection.

Thanks in advance.
Did you call an intention foul or a flagrant foul? For this play i would have called a flagrant foul which is just another technical signal + ejection signal (or this is what I would do however I've never had a flagrant foul yet).
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 10:36pm
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I called flagrant t the table, but, honestly, here is how I did it and I know I am wrong.
I hit the whistle, fist in the air, then signaled intentional. In this situation, the coach of the team that fouled wouldn't have cared what I signaled because he was one the girl quicker than anyone else was.

As I had said, I want to get the mechanics correct.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 11:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkohls View Post
I called flagrant t the table, but, honestly, here is how I did it and I know I am wrong.
I hit the whistle, fist in the air, then signaled intentional. In this situation, the coach of the team that fouled wouldn't have cared what I signaled because he was one the girl quicker than anyone else was.

As I had said, I want to get the mechanics correct.
Not A "T"....It was a live ball ..This cannot be a technical in this case....Only a flagrant or intentional foul; 2 shots plus the the ball at the point nearest the foul.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 11:40pm
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Originally Posted by refiator View Post
Not A "T"....It was a live ball ..This cannot be a technical in this case....Only a flagrant or intentional foul; 2 shots plus the the ball at the point nearest the foul.
It doesn't have to be either/or flagrant/ intentional, it can be both. And it's definitely NOT a T, you're right about that, refiator. You've got the penalty right.

Use the intentional foul signal, tell the coach and the table it's flagrant and then administer the shots same as any other intentional foul.
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Old Sat Jan 30, 2010, 12:02am
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That's what I did. Guess I get lucky sometimes.

Thanks for the responses. I read the forum often and it really has been helpful.
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Old Sat Jan 30, 2010, 12:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
It doesn't have to be either/or flagrant/ intentional, it can be both.
No, it can't.

Since the ball was live, and it was a contact foul, it's personal.

It might be an intentional personal ("x" signal; 2 Fts by fouled player, ball at spot nearest foul).

It might be a flagrant personal (no specified signal, 2 Fts by fouled player, ball at spot nearest foul).

Last edited by bob jenkins; Sat Jan 30, 2010 at 10:24am. Reason: egregious error
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Old Sat Jan 30, 2010, 12:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
It doesn't have to be either/or flagrant/ intentional, it can be both. And it's definitely NOT a T, you're right about that, refiator. You've got the penalty right.
bob's right, it does have to be either flagrant or intentional; not both. Different penalties. It is, however, personal. The difference is the fouled player has to shoot the FTs (or her sub), and the ball is taken out at the spot nearet the foul.
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Old Sat Jan 30, 2010, 12:32am
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Yep
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Old Sat Jan 30, 2010, 12:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
No, it can't.

Since the ball was live, and it was a contact foul, it's personal.

It might be an intentional personal ("x" signal; 2 Fts by fouled player, ball at spot nearest foul).

It might be a flagrant personal (no specified signa;, 2 FTs by any eligible team member; ball at spot nearest foul).
After I entered that, I started re-thinking it so I went and looked it up. I can't find a reference that says either/or, but then I can't find anything that says I'm right either. I'm sure you're right, since I've never known you to be otherwise. But can you give me some rule references?
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Old Sat Jan 30, 2010, 01:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
After I entered that, I started re-thinking it so I went and looked it up. I can't find a reference that says either/or, but then I can't find anything that says I'm right either. I'm sure you're right, since I've never known you to be otherwise. But can you give me some rule references?
Definition of flagrant foul is 4-19-4.

The confusing thing is that a part of definition is that "it may or may not be intentional."

I believe in this case intentional is only an adjective.

IOW, a flagrant foul can be committed by accident.
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Old Sat Jan 30, 2010, 07:59am
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Seems to be a common misconception......

NFHS Forum: flagrant foul reporting

Maybre BillyMac needs to put this one on his list of misunderstood rules.
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Old Sat Jan 30, 2010, 08:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
No, it can't.

Since the ball was live, and it was a contact foul, it's personal.

It might be an intentional personal ("x" signal; 2 Fts by fouled player, ball at spot nearest foul).

It might be a flagrant personal (no specified signal, 2 FTs by any eligible team member; ball at spot nearest foul).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
bob's right, it does have to be either flagrant or intentional; not both. Different penalties. It is, however, personal. The difference is the fouled player has to shoot the FTs (or her sub), and the ball is taken out at the spot nearet the foul.
No, the difference is that the offender is disqualified on a flagrant personal foul. The rest is the same as an intentional personal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
After I entered that, I started re-thinking it so I went and looked it up. I can't find a reference that says either/or, but then I can't find anything that says I'm right either. I'm sure you're right, since I've never known you to be otherwise. But can you give me some rule references?
Actually, bob is not fully correct this time. I've highlighted the part of his post which is incorrect. The rest is good though.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Sat Jan 30, 2010 at 08:09am.
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