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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 08:19pm
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4-42 Throw-in;designated spot

Team A has the AP arrow to start the second half. A1 is standing completley out of bounds (designated thrower) next to the referee. The referee sounds his whistle and attempts to hand the ball to A1 but A1 runs on the court (leaving the designated-spot area).The ref places the ball on the gound OOB and begins the 5 second count. A1 never touched the ball OOB. A2 steps out of bounds and completes the throw-in before the 5 second count reaches 5.A2 appeared to be the player who was supposed to inbound for team A. it appeared that he forgot at first. Is this play legal?
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 08:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RefLarry View Post
Is this play legal?
The thrower shall not leave the designated throw-in spot until the
ball has been released on a throw-in pass.

The thrown ball shall not be touched by a teammate of the thrower
while the ball is on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane,
except as in 7-5-7.

The thrower shall not be replaced by a teammate after the ball is at
the thrower's disposal, except as in 7-5-7.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 09:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RefLarry View Post
Team A has the AP arrow to start the second half. A1 is standing completley out of bounds (designated thrower) next to the referee. The referee sounds his whistle and attempts to hand the ball to A1 but A1 runs on the court (leaving the designated-spot area).The ref places the ball on the gound OOB and begins the 5 second count. A1 never touched the ball OOB. A2 steps out of bounds and completes the throw-in before the 5 second count reaches 5.A2 appeared to be the player who was supposed to inbound for team A. it appeared that he forgot at first. Is this play legal?
I believe that it is legal. A1 vacated prior to the ball being placed at the disposal. Therefore, A1 was not the thrower, nor was he a teammate of the thrower who was OOB during the throw-in.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 08:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I believe that it is legal. A1 vacated prior to the ball being placed at the disposal. Therefore, A1 was not the thrower, nor was he a teammate of the thrower who was OOB during the throw-in.
With Nevada on this one. Ball was never at A1's disposal.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 09:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
With Nevada on this one. Ball was never at A1's disposal.
So when the ball is placed at A1's disposal, He / She can refuse it and enter the court? Seems like it certainly was at their disposal as the ref was ready and handing it over .
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upward ref View Post
So when the ball is placed at A1's disposal, He / She can refuse it and enter the court? Seems like it certainly was at their disposal as the ref was ready and handing it over .
I agree the ball was at A1's disposal prior to returning onto court.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 10:41am
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I think this is an either/or situation. Arguments could be made that the ball was at the disposal (handed but not accepted) and that it was not (never touched). I'm thinking it is a HTBT situation: if it was obvious trickery to deceive the opponent into guarding the wrong person I'd tend toward calling it; if it was clearly a brain cramp by some kid being a kid I'd tend to let it slide.

Would it make a difference if the official had bounced the ball (begun his bounce) and the thrower just ignored the ball and changed places while the ball dribbled away?
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 10:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upward ref View Post
So when the ball is placed at A1's disposal, He / She can refuse it and enter the court? Seems like it certainly was at their disposal as the ref was ready and handing it over .
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny1784 View Post
I agree the ball was at A1's disposal prior to returning onto court.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchor View Post
I think this is an either/or situation. Arguments could be made that the ball was at the disposal (handed but not accepted) and that it was not (never touched). I'm thinking it is a HTBT situation: if it was obvious trickery to deceive the opponent into guarding the wrong person I'd tend toward calling it; if it was clearly a brain cramp by some kid being a kid I'd tend to let it slide.

Would it make a difference if the official had bounced the ball (begun his bounce) and the thrower just ignored the ball and changed places while the ball dribbled away?
Why don't the three of you look up 4-Disposal (actually, I think it might be 4-Ball Location / Disposal) and see if that changes your minds.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 11:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchor View Post
I think this is an either/or situation. Arguments could be made that the ball was at the disposal (handed but not accepted) and that it was not (never touched). I'm thinking it is a HTBT situation: if it was obvious trickery to deceive the opponent into guarding the wrong person I'd tend toward calling it; if it was clearly a brain cramp by some kid being a kid I'd tend to let it slide.

Would it make a difference if the official had bounced the ball (begun his bounce) and the thrower just ignored the ball and changed places while the ball dribbled away?
Gut reaction would be that the bounce to the player puts it at his/her disposal. Start the count, nobody else can touch.

Unless you deem it to be a bad bounce, as to a FT shooter, and simply kill it and say let's start this thing over.

Back to the OP, it's a HTBT but seems one could make the case that the ball was put on the ground at the team's disposal, not just A1, so play on. Same as if the ball was placed down if they were tardy breaking their huddle.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 11:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchor View Post
...
Would it make a difference if the official had bounced the ball (begun his bounce) and the thrower just ignored the ball and changed places while the ball dribbled away?
Me personally, I would hit my whistle and re-administer. As I don't see this happening to me more than once in my career (hasn't yet) I could live with it one time. But I also tend to make sure I have the thrower's attention on throw-ins before I put the ball at their disposal. I have had potential throwers say "Hold on" and then the team switches throwers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AMESMAN
Gut reaction would be that the bounce to the player puts it at his/her disposal. Start the count, nobody else can touch.
When you bounce the ball to a free thrower, when is the ball at his disposal? Can the defensive team request and be granted a T-O during the bounce?
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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Jan 29, 2010 at 11:11am.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 11:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Why don't the three of you look up 4-Disposal (actually, I think it might be 4-Ball Location / Disposal) and see if that changes your minds.
OK, saw Bob's post after my first (darn it).

4-4 Ball location, at disposal

ART. 7 ... A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is:
a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower (DIDN'T happen yet in OP)
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her (MY bad above)
c. Placed on the floor at the spot
d. Available to a player after a goal
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 12:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amesman View Post
OK, saw Bob's post after my first (darn it).

4-4 Ball location, at disposal

ART. 7 ... A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is:
a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower (DIDN'T happen yet in OP)
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her (MY bad above)
c. Placed on the floor at the spot
d. Available to a player after a goal
OK Amesman, you're good but I'm still the hardheaded one ! While I do and will accept the consensus of you vet's ; IM(very)HO the official has handed the ball over , or at least has attempted to . In between the rules lines I can infer handed and accepted . Also agree with the intent part of brain cramp or not etc. HTBT. That being said It doesn't seem like much of a big deal . I feel like the Official decides when play should resume by rule , not the teams . What If they decide it's still the wrong thrower? Switch again ? <><
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 01:50pm
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If I'm standing there, and the thrower refuses to take the ball, I'll set it down. But unless that thrower is still there when I do it, the first person OOB will be the thrower.

BTW, I've never done this, never had to. I'll get the thrower's attention if I have to. It just takes a couple seconds at most. No more than trying to bring the thrower out to the 3 pt line when he wants to throw it in from the lane line extended.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 07:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
If I'm standing there, and the thrower refuses to take the ball, I'll set it down. But unless that thrower is still there when I do it, the first person OOB will be the thrower.
Ding, ding, ding... we have a winner.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 07:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I believe that it is legal. A1 vacated prior to the ball being placed at the disposal. Therefore, A1 was not the thrower, nor was he a teammate of the thrower who was OOB during the throw-in.
Agree.
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