Unusual and weird situation resulting in ejection

[Adam]

Interesting, he doesn't state it clearly, but it seems to imply that a flop without contact should be called a block. It seems odd for Adams to be advocating a call that is incorrect by rule, am I reading this incorrectly? Maybe he's only referring to flops that involve contact.

[Kelvin green]

I think he is referring to flops that cause contact.

That being said...MOst flops have some sort of contact, feet tangled, minor tripping, etc... since it was a flop and the person causes a saefty issue (OP) then the minor contact is more than incidental.

Personally this is where I would rather see NFHS adopt the NBA rule on Ts. It is one shot and play from POI. I think officials would be more likely to call a T if the possible swing is not 4 or 5 points...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

.... that official should use the next opportunity to inform the offending player that if he flops again, the official will call a blocking foul on him.

I don't care who said it, this is bogus.

[Adam]

I think Kelvin's thoughts here are right on, and I was trying to figure out how to say it before. On a flop, my threshold for advantage is going to drop significantly due to safety concerns (sort of like protecting the shooter), so it won't take much contact at all in order to draw a blocking foul.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by representing

I do know that, at least in Pennsylvania, this would have been done the same way by many officials. I've told this situation I had to several of my buddies who have done State tournaments in Pennsylvania and they all said pretty much the same thing. I f*cked up because I didn't realize that it was the scorekeeper doing that before I T'ed him up, but I did take care of it correctly.

I've asked around this weekend, and all the officials I've asked, right here in Pennsylvania, disagree completely. Once the free throws have been taken, they wouldn't wipe off the foul and the free throws. Some of them have even done state tournaments! I agree as well, FWIW. So please don't pretend to speak for the whole Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

I think he is referring to flops that cause contact.

That being said...MOst flops have some sort of contact, feet tangled, minor tripping, etc... since it was a flop and the person causes a saefty issue (OP) then the minor contact is more than incidental.

If it causes contact, then by definition it isn't a flop.

You're talking about fouls, not flops. By definition, "flops" have no contact or incidental contact and you do not have rules backing to call a personal foul when there is no contact or incidental contact.

If the minor contact is more than incidental, then it is a foul for illegal contact--exactly the same as we call any other contact that is more than incidental.

If the contact caused a safety issue and the contact is more than incidental, then it is NOT a flop and should be called accordingly.

This came from a FED POE in the 2004-05 rulebook-
'Flopping'- the defensive player or screener acting as though he or she has been charged by an opponent, when in fact he or she has not been, definitely has an impact on the game. It is detrimental to the best interests of basketball. The "actor" wants to create the false impression that he or she has been fouled in the charging/guarding situation, or while he or she is screening when in either case there is no contact or incidental contact. The 'actor' falls to the court as though he or she were knocked down by the force of the contact. Those actions are designed to have a foul charged to the opponent- a foul not deserved. The 'flop' also incites spectators. The rules are in place to deal with such activity and must be enforced. A technical foul is charged to the actor in ALL cases. Coaches can have a positive impact by appropriately dealing with players who fake being fouled. It is not part of the game. Officials must penalize the act.

I don't know if the FED could define 'flops' better than that for us.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think Kelvin's thoughts here are right on, and I was trying to figure out how to say it before. On a flop, my threshold for advantage is going to drop significantly due to safety concerns (sort of like protecting the shooter), so it won't take much contact at all in order to draw a blocking foul.

And if you call a blocking foul for illegal contact, you never had a flop in the first place. You had a personal foul for illegal contact.

They're completely separate acts and are treated and penalized as such under NFHS rules.

Just want to make sure that everyone is aware of that.....

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by snaqwells

am i reading this incorrectly?

yes!!!!

[doubleringer]

From the OP it sounds like this kid had no clue what was going on. I would have gone to the head coach and told him what you were seeing and get them to correct it. If he went down again like that, call the T. It is a safety issue which is why the penalty is severe.

I actually got trapped into calling this T a long time ago. My partner gave a kid a formal warning for flopping. I got by the coach and told him what that was about (I had been trying to get over and explain it to him before the warning, but darn 2 man didn't get me there). Sure enough, early in the second half, after I had explained the warning to the coach, the kid took a dive right in front of me. I didn't even hesitate. As I reported, the coach started to complain, I just said, "That's exactly the play we talked about before halftime, you knew it was coming." He had nothing else to say on the matter.

[Vinski]

Representing, here is my thoughts on your situation.
Like most of the posters here have said, you must bust the flops early. If you don’t, as you have witnessed, someone will get hurt. Frankly, if that was my kid that got hurt, you would have gotten more than just a snicker from me.
With flops you need to at least warn the first time. If there is any contact whatsoever, call the block. If you warn, do so immediately and make sure your partner and the coach know you warned so when the T comes it’s no surprise. Odds are it will stop immediately.

Regarding the T you gave: One may have had to been there, but I don’t think a snicker merits a T. You have to have a bit thicker skin than this to officiate. But maybe there was more to it than that, I don’t know. But based on what you said, I don’t have a T here. If you were giving the T based on the assumed AC being on the court, again this is iffy. True, he’s not supposed to be there unless he was beckoned, but if he is there for the best interest of the kid and just snickered…I dunno.

Regarding the retraction of the T: As everyone else has stated, this is not a correctable error and the free throws cannot be wiped. You gave an unsporting T. Regardless of who you gave it to, you judged the act as unsporting and that is unchangeable. Just like you would judge any contact as a personal foul, you can’t change that. Now, you may have applied this T incorrectly just like you could incorrectly apply a personal foul. For example, you get the number wrong on a hand check foul by reporting white 21. The table records the foul and then tells you white 21 is not currently on the court. You then say, my bad, it’s actually white 12. The table then fixes the mistake in the book and off we go.

What I believe your options are with the T is when you found out that this person was not the AC but instead a father and the score keeper, you could have simple changed the direct T on the phantom AC to a team T. This, of course would negate the indirect on the coach. IMHO

I don’t think you should hang up your whistle, but I do think you need a bit thicker skin and to mature your judgment. You obviously want to improve, so dive into the rules more vigorously and you absolutely must listen to other officials input with humility. I’m not saying that you should agree with everything you hear. But definitely consider and weigh everything you hear.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

I actually got trapped into calling this T a long time ago. My partner gave a kid a formal warning for flopping. I got by the coach and told him what that was about (I had been trying to get over and explain it to him before the warning, but darn 2 man didn't get me there).

Why would you do that?

Your partner gave the warning. If the coach wants an explanation, let your partner give it to him. It was his call to explain, not yours.

If the coach asks, just say "It's a warning for flopping. My partner will explain it to you if you want, when he gets a chance." If the coach doesn't ask, leave it alone.