The case against two man

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I agree with biggravy that it's much easier to look where you're going when running from T to L in 3 man. No, I do not look over my shoulder the entire time. If there's a play behind me, there's a C and a T. Rarely do I ever have to make a call going to L. It's my job to get to the end line and be ready for the play to come to me.

But in the OP biggravy specifically mentioned a fast break. As new L in 3-man, you still have to look back over your shoulder for a fast break (assuming you're ahead of it), don't you?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by biggravy

I am table side ball coming up my line fast and under pressure keeping me right on the sideline instead of on the court. Next thing I know, I am looking at the ceiling. My knee collided with the forehead of a very stout two year old girl and I landed in an awkward pile on the floor. Game management in this place did nothing to keep fans from walking down that sideline in front of the benches.

The fans in question are out of bounds? Why is the sideline in front of the benches any different than the other sideline?

[biggravy]

Originally Posted by biggravy

I am table side ball coming up my line fast and under pressure keeping me right on the sideline instead of on the court. Next thing I know, I am looking at the ceiling. My knee collided with the forehead of a very stout two year old girl and I landed in an awkward pile on the floor. Game management in this place did nothing to keep fans from walking down that sideline in front of the benches.

Originally Posted by just another ref

The fans in question are out of bounds? Why is the sideline in front of the benches any different than the other sideline?

I need a markerboard so I can just draw this. Usually if there is no nearby action, I am a safe two feet or so onto the court in transition. Around here, the benches seem to be right up on the sideline. In two man, this keeps me from colliding w/ coaches, bench personnel, mascots, etc. since I am having to look to the right or even over my shoulder while I am running, sometimes at a dead sprint (a gear I rarely need in 3 man). In my sitch, team A has secured a turnover at about the 28 foot line, 5 feet in from my sideline. They are (poorly) attempting to turn it into a fastbreak. I have now moved to where my left shoulder is over the sideline due to the action being just a couple feet away. In three man, as they are mucking it up I am sprinting ahead of the action where I can then a. turn and watch, b. have good position if they snap a pass downcourt. I've got the new T behind me coming right up on the action and taking the sideline. I can focus for a second on juking the coach, mascot, etc. to get where I need to be. Too bad this is two man. I need to constantly watch to my right or slightly behind while I am moving WITH the play instead of ahead of it b/c there is no T coming up behind me. Somehow with my Jedi sense I juked and missed the sub at the table (6" between the table and the sideline), the standing coach, the legs sticking out kid on the bench, the 6 year old walking the two year old and holding the popcorn but I was unable to focus my senses to the tricycle motor that only came up to the top of my knee. The fans WERE NOT out of bounds, thus the collision. It was a situation that I AM 100% CONFIDENT would not have ended that way in three man.

I believe two man:

-Results in a poorly officiated game as compared to 3 man, all other factors being equal.

-Leads to more rough play.

-Increases the injury potential for officials and players.

[mj]

As it was stated by others earlier in the thread, you should not be taking your eyes off the players on the court. In other words watching where you're running.

As lead you must have players in your primary. If you are watching where you are running, you aren't watching the players.

As someone who does mostly 2-man with a 3-man sprinkled in about 12 times a year, my body aches ALOT more after a 2-man compared to 3-man.

[Ignats75]

Yes, but the pressure on the 2 person mechanic is that while hustling as the new lead, you have sideline responsibility unlike 3 person. I find that the challenge for two person is that you need to focus more on this issue. So I don't have to turn my head like Linda Blair while running down the court in 3 person.

A few years ago, BJV (two person) I was running down the sideline looking over my shoulder when the next thing my partner saw was a big cloud of popcorn. I ejected the fan for being on the floor since I was in bounds and there was a long runner out of bounds to guide the spectators where they should walk. I was pissed. I did get some satisfaction as the moron had to limp out of the gym.

All V here is 3 person. All JV is 2 person. There is talk that the big power private schools are going to 3 person for BJV. They need to. Most of their JV teams are bigger and more athletic than some teams V. But the school conferences determine what is used not our association. Here, the association has no authority over assignments or fees. Thats all controlled by the schools. Thats why we are underpaid compared to other states.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Yes, but the pressure on the 2 person mechanic is that while hustling as the new lead, you have sideline responsibility unlike 3 person. I find that the challenge for two person is that you need to focus more on this issue. So I don't have to turn my head like Linda Blair while running down the court in 3 person.

A few years ago, BJV (two person) I was running down the sideline looking over my shoulder when the next thing my partner saw was a big cloud of popcorn. I ejected the fan for being on the floor since I was in bounds and there was a long runner out of bounds to guide the spectators where they should walk. I was pissed. I did get some satisfaction as the moron had to limp out of the gym.

All V here is 3 person. All JV is 2 person. There is talk that the big power private schools are going to 3 person for BJV. They need to. Most of their JV teams are bigger and more athletic than some teams V. But the school conferences determine what is used not our association. Here, the association has no authority over assignments or fees. Thats all controlled by the schools. Thats why we are underpaid compared to other states.

I'll buy this -- the Linda Blair comment is pretty spot on. You actually have to officiate behind you in 2-person and you really don't in 3.

[jdw3018]

I hear biggravy on this one. It's not that you can just turn and leave the action completely going T-to-L in 3-man, but you don't have the sideline to cover, and don't need to help at all in the backcourt. It's much more likely you can look where you are going a bit more often.

Also, in 3-man, as T you can work wider and deeper (regardless of what the "recommendation" is). You don't have to get nearly as far onto the court for sure. You can release quicker after a rebound. All of these reasons makes biggravy's description of the play believable.

That said, it's unfortunately part of the territory.

I had my first V 2-man game ever last night. It's a challenge. And anyone who argues it's not much harder on the body - and that there's no doubt more "action" is missed in a 2-man game - hasn't worked enough of both.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

All V here is 3 person. All JV is 2 person. There is talk that the big power private schools are going to 3 person for BJV. They need to. Most of their JV teams are bigger and more athletic than some teams V. But the school conferences determine what is used not our association. Here, the association has no authority over assignments or fees. Thats all controlled by the schools. Thats why we are underpaid compared to other states.

I just came from a state where in my district every game was 3-man. Everything from Jr. High girls to V level action was 3-man. We got paid a little less than we could have if we worked 2-man, but it was more than worth it to give up some bucks to work 3-man.

I just moved and worked my first game in a state where only the biggest two classes use 3-man for V, everything else is 2-man.

This is going to be an adjustment...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by biggravy

I The fans WERE NOT out of bounds, thus the collision.

If a kid wanders onto the court and we have a collision, it is regrettable, sure, but it's not our fault. This could happen in three man also.

As far as the added need to sprint to stay ahead in two man, sometimes you simply have to step aside and let the players pass, then follow.

I personally think the guarantee of a better called game with three man is overstated.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I personally think the guarantee of a better called game with three man is overstated.

Will each and every game be better called? No, but the odds are far and away higher that the gave will be well called.
Frankly, it has nothing to do with sprinting down the court, but having the third set of eyes to catch off ball stuff is important.

Last night I had one of my few 2-whistle games, and I know for a fact things were missed that would have been caught with 3 whistles.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Will each and every game be better called? No, but the odds are far and away higher that the gave will be well called.
Frankly, it has nothing to do with sprinting down the court, but having the third set of eyes to catch off ball stuff is important.

Last night I had one of my few 2-whistle games, and I know for a fact things were missed that would have been caught with 3 whistles.

I'm working for a small conference this season that uses two man crews and really notice that I'm missing plenty. No question 3 person is a better officiated game.