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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 03:19pm
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The case against two man

This came up in another thread and rather than derail it, I'll start my own:

Last year I came close to a career ending injury working two man. I will never work V games two man again. In JV or lower I can see it, maybe. The crowds are not as thick, the action not as fast, but I ABSOLUTELY HATE having to run on the fast break and look back over my shoulder instead of looking where I am running. All our schools here V is 3 man. Except one cheapo school. I go there for a two man game and have this same fast break situation. I am table side ball coming up my line fast and under pressure keeping me right on the sideline instead of on the court. Next thing I know, I am looking at the ceiling. My knee collided with the forehead of a very stout two year old girl and I landed in an awkward pile on the floor. Game management in this place did nothing to keep fans from walking down that sideline in front of the benches. Somehow, we both wound up okay. It could have been a career ender for me. No more two man. O, and the ball went oob on my line. I think it went off of home, but not sure since I am now looking at the ceiling. I give it to V. Home coach goes nuts. I tell him keep your fans out of the way or don't talk to me about who's ball it is.

Fast forward to this year. Citing "budget concerns", many schools have opted for two man Varsity next year. In Kansas, schools are limited to 20 games per season. Half home, half away. We make $100 for two V games working three man, $115 two man. So school A has ten home nights x 3 officials = 300/night or 3000 a season for officials. Now they go to two man. They have 230/night or 2300/season. They save $700. I 100% GUARANTEE we can call a better game 3 man vs. two man. V games w/ 2 man seem more physical and border on out of control, imo, no matter how hard we work. So to save 700, we get more pissed off coaches, more pissed off fans, and I guarantee taking our third whistle will lead to more injuries, both officials and players. I don't know much about school budgets, but I can't see how $700 is going to break them. Raise the gate $1. Very poor decision by schools. Is anyone else seeing "the economy" force them back to two man?
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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 03:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggravy View Post
This came up in another thread and rather than derail it, I'll start my own:

Last year I came close to a career ending injury working two man. I will never work V games two man again. In JV or lower I can see it, maybe. The crowds are not as thick, the action not as fast, but I ABSOLUTELY HATE having to run on the fast break and look back over my shoulder instead of looking where I am running. All our schools here V is 3 man. Except one cheapo school. I go there for a two man game and have this same fast break situation. I am table side ball coming up my line fast and under pressure keeping me right on the sideline instead of on the court. Next thing I know, I am looking at the ceiling. My knee collided with the forehead of a very stout two year old girl and I landed in an awkward pile on the floor. Game management in this place did nothing to keep fans from walking down that sideline in front of the benches. Somehow, we both wound up okay. It could have been a career ender for me. No more two man. O, and the ball went oob on my line. I think it went off of home, but not sure since I am now looking at the ceiling. I give it to V. Home coach goes nuts. I tell him keep your fans out of the way or don't talk to me about who's ball it is.

Fast forward to this year. Citing "budget concerns", many schools have opted for two man Varsity next year. In Kansas, schools are limited to 20 games per season. Half home, half away. We make $100 for two V games working three man, $115 two man. So school A has ten home nights x 3 officials = 300/night or 3000 a season for officials. Now they go to two man. They have 230/night or 2300/season. They save $700. I 100% GUARANTEE we can call a better game 3 man vs. two man. V games w/ 2 man seem more physical and border on out of control, imo, no matter how hard we work. So to save 700, we get more pissed off coaches, more pissed off fans, and I guarantee taking our third whistle will lead to more injuries, both officials and players. I don't know much about school budgets, but I can't see how $700 is going to break them. Raise the gate $1. Very poor decision by schools. Is anyone else seeing "the economy" force them back to two man?
in your math, did you include both boys and girls games? From what I can tell, you didn't. So that doubles the savings to 1400 a year. I think 1400 dollars for a public school district is a fair amount of money.
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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 03:26pm
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They tried to bump the JV down to 2 man in our metro league. We (I use the word loosely) voted to dump on the freshman officials to make up most of the difference.
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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 03:29pm
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I'm in Norcal and the vast majority, like 98%, of the games are 2 man. 3 man is only for deep in the playoffs and the little one day show off tourneys.

Refuse to work 2 man at the varsity level here you just won't work. I have 4 Varsity 2 man games this week, its just the way it is here.
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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 03:31pm
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I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say "watch where you are running." I mean, you know you're supposed to look over your shoulder in 3-person, too, right?
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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 03:32pm
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My math is spot on. $50 per game OR the $100 for a BV/GV doubleheader. Do the math either way and it works out to $3000 v. $2300.

I feel bad for those who only get two man. The game is much better when it is called by three. I would like to see a study on player and official injuries in 2 man v. 3 man.
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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 03:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say "watch where you are running." I mean, you know you're supposed to look over your shoulder in 3-person, too, right?
That is what I was thinking too.
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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 03:42pm
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Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say "watch where you are running." I mean, you know you're supposed to look over your shoulder in 3-person, too, right?
Personally, in 3 man as T moving to L it seems there is much less pressure as I am usually ahead of the action. It's hard to explain I guess. In 3 man being T => L, I can usually get ahead of that play and am in less of a hurry. I've got the new T behind me picking up part of that action as it is right in front of him. In 2 man, I've only got my partner across the court. A loose ball comes out top and toward my line, I've got to be where I can see that action. That turns into a fast break and now I am right along side the players, squeezed between them and the benches. Make sense?
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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 03:48pm
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Originally Posted by biggravy View Post
Personally, in 3 man as T moving to L it seems there is much less pressure as I am usually ahead of the action. It's hard to explain I guess. In 3 man being T => L, I can usually get ahead of that play and am in less of a hurry. I've got the new T behind me picking up part of that action as it is right in front of him. In 2 man, I've only got my partner across the court. A loose ball comes out top and toward my line, I've got to be where I can see that action. That turns into a fast break and now I am right along side the players, squeezed between them and the benches. Make sense?
Not really. I'm still not seeing how you can avoid looking over your shoulder while running down the court.
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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 03:53pm
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In 2 person, the recommended position for T is about 6 feet above the arc. In 3 person, the recommended position for T is about 6 feet above the arc. (At least what I was taught)

Why do people think you run less in 3 person?

Also, $1400 a year in a school budget is peanuts.
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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 04:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHtown View Post
In 2 person, the recommended position for T is about 6 feet above the arc. In 3 person, the recommended position for T is about 6 feet above the arc. (At least what I was taught)

Why do people think you run less in 3 person?

Also, $1400 a year in a school budget is peanuts.
Depending on what you do in 3 Person, you do not have to sprint everywhere. Just being in the center position you do not move that much. I think you can get away with not running that much in a high school floor setting.

That being said, depending on the school I would think that $1400 is a little high. For one in many cases schools cannot play that many games at home. Maybe 10-12 games at the most. If you are paying $60 per official (one game of course) and they play 12 games at home (not including tournaments or other events that make schools money) that is only $720 extra dollars per season for another official. So the amount is minor if you value a better called game and what many schools claim is about "safety." I know a few schools in my area that did not play a single home game until January. And I doubt they will get to 10 games by season's end at home.

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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 04:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggravy View Post
This came up in another thread and rather than derail it, I'll start my own:

Last year I came close to a career ending injury working two man. I will never work V games two man again. In JV or lower I can see it, maybe. The crowds are not as thick, the action not as fast, but I ABSOLUTELY HATE having to run on the fast break and look back over my shoulder instead of looking where I am running. All our schools here V is 3 man. Except one cheapo school. I go there for a two man game and have this same fast break situation. I am table side ball coming up my line fast and under pressure keeping me right on the sideline instead of on the court. Next thing I know, I am looking at the ceiling. My knee collided with the forehead of a very stout two year old girl and I landed in an awkward pile on the floor. Game management in this place did nothing to keep fans from walking down that sideline in front of the benches. Somehow, we both wound up okay. It could have been a career ender for me. No more two man. O, and the ball went oob on my line. I think it went off of home, but not sure since I am now looking at the ceiling. I give it to V. Home coach goes nuts. I tell him keep your fans out of the way or don't talk to me about who's ball it is.

Fast forward to this year. Citing "budget concerns", many schools have opted for two man Varsity next year. In Kansas, schools are limited to 20 games per season. Half home, half away. We make $100 for two V games working three man, $115 two man. So school A has ten home nights x 3 officials = 300/night or 3000 a season for officials. Now they go to two man. They have 230/night or 2300/season. They save $700. I 100% GUARANTEE we can call a better game 3 man vs. two man. V games w/ 2 man seem more physical and border on out of control, imo, no matter how hard we work. So to save 700, we get more pissed off coaches, more pissed off fans, and I guarantee taking our third whistle will lead to more injuries, both officials and players. I don't know much about school budgets, but I can't see how $700 is going to break them. Raise the gate $1. Very poor decision by schools. Is anyone else seeing "the economy" force them back to two man?
I worked a GJV/V game last night 2-Man. I got burnt running down the court on OOB call behind me in the backcourt on my line. T was able to help me. We talked about the failing of two man and how we are used to not having to ref that line in 3-Man. Coach questioned the call at a time out. I told him if he wanted a better officiated view on that play to, hire 3 Officials. He said we've had two officials here since I played ball here. I told him "they missed it then to right, coach?". Big followed. Afterwards he admitted they really needed to get 3 for the V games anyway.
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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 05:27pm
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Back to BigGravy's point: that the amount of money needed per year for the 3rd official is small when looking at an overall school budget. I agree it's small but disagree that it should be a priority for schools. I won't get too in depth on why but there were a hand full of schools closed this year in this area due to budget cuts. How can I complain about not having a 3rd official when teachers are being cut and kids class sizes are sky rocketing? Anyway. To answer your last question...

Last year I would say about 75% of varsity games were 3 crew around here. This year, citing budget issues, all but 2 conferences went back to 2. All for about $1,500 a year/school. Some very good, experienced, valuable officials are cutting back and/or hanging it up because they can't keep up with just 2 officials. It sucks but it's life.
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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 05:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHtown View Post
In 2 person, the recommended position for T is about 6 feet above the arc. In 3 person, the recommended position for T is about 6 feet above the arc. (At least what I was taught)

Why do people think you run less in 3 person?

Also, $1400 a year in a school budget is peanuts.
Because you do. Anyone who works a considerable amount of both won't even try to pretend that it's no harder on the body working 2 than working 3.

To me, the biggest difference is you spend 1/3 of the game at C and you simply don't need to sprint nearly as much as a C. You don't have a play to beat down the floor and you use your eyes more than you use your legs.
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Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 11:12pm
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The NCHSAA mandates that all varsity contests are officiated by three officials, and have since 1991. Schools have no choice. Your state association needs to grow a pair.

Our local association also uses three man for all JV games as well and have done so since 2004. How else you can you train JV officials?

I agree with biggravy that it's much easier to look where you're going when running from T to L in 3 man. No, I do not look over my shoulder the entire time. If there's a play behind me, there's a C and a T. Rarely do I ever have to make a call going to L. It's my job to get to the end line and be ready for the play to come to me.

And yes, Rut and Rich are correct. You spend +/- a third of the game at C, where you're not sprinting to the other end as often. If you've got a team pressing full court, it's a walk from FT line to FT line. That's huge!
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