What to Do?

[Loudwhistle]

Spent the last two days watching my daughter play HS basketball. In Fridays game I noticed when she went to put the ball into play at a designated throw in spot, the defender was right at the line like they usually are and this was causing her some difficulty. I told her that night to simply step back a couple of feet. Told her she could go back ten feet if the gym allowed but she had to stay in the 3' zone that she was standing in when she recieved the ball. Well tonights game is going along and she goes to make a throwin and gets the ball and steps straight back towards the wall. REff blows the whistle, and gives the traveling signal! WTH?? Of course I'm mortified! I don't say anything from the stands, but I see her at half time and ask what did the reff say to you? "He said I have to maintain a pivot foot during the throwin. I told her he is dead wrong and I'll show her later that I'm right. I also told her she is going to have to play the game his way and don't move once he gives you the ball for a throwin. Now my question is what should I do? I'm not a member of this official's association. Should I just ignore his ignorance and let it drop, or should I mail him the rule and hope for the best? My gut tells me to do nothing because I feel a bit out of line correcting a senior reff who isn't part of my association. Were I ever to call a game with him I would have no problem talking to him in private. He's probably 60+ and reffed way more than I have. Any suggestions?

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

Spent the last two days watching my daughter play HS basketball. In Fridays game I noticed when she went to put the ball into play at a designated throw in spot, the defender was right at the line like they usually are and this was causing her some difficulty. I told her that night to simply step back a couple of feet. Told her she could go back ten feet if the gym allowed but she had to stay in the 3' zone that she was standing in when she recieved the ball. Well tonights game is going along and she goes to make a throwin and gets the ball and steps straight back towards the wall. REff blows the whistle, and gives the traveling signal! WTH?? Of course I'm mortified! I don't say anything from the stands, but I see her at half time and ask what did the reff say to you? "He said I have to maintain a pivot foot during the throwin. I told her he is dead wrong and I'll show her later that I'm right. I also told her she is going to have to play the game his way and don't move once he gives you the ball for a throwin. Now my question is what should I do? I'm not a member of this official's association. Should I just ignore his ignorance and let it drop, or should I mail him the rule and hope for the best? My gut tells me to do nothing because I feel a bit out of line correcting a senior reff who isn't part of my association. Were I ever to call a game with him I would have no problem talking to him in private. He's probably 60+ and reffed way more than I have. Any suggestions?

YIKES!!! This individual obivously flat out does not know the rule. As a coach, I am certainly going to have the official "consult" with HIS partners during a break. I will also request that the individual look the play up in a the Rules Book at halftime as the rule has, uh, "changed recently."

Not knowing the rule on a last-touch-first-touch backcourt violation may cost a team the ball ONE TIME during a game. Not knowing the rule on the backcourt violation exceptions on a throw-in may, once again, cost a team the ball ONE TIME during a game.

Not knowing that an inbounder can step back to relieve pressure during a throw-in may, in fact, alter the outcome of a game. If a team has a big and active defender on the ball during a full-court press, preventing the offensive player from stepping back allows a defender to significantly decrease any chance of improving a passing angle.

This individual MUST be informed ASAP that he MUST learn this rule. Being completely honest, if I am in the stands as a parent, I will have a REALLY HARD TIME not saying anything to him and subsequently his partners. Once again, this lack of rules knowledge potentially has a MAJOR INFLUENCE on the outcome of a game. I would absolutely send an e-mail to the assignor for this league and/or the head of the individual's association (assuming that he has not already "figured it out" during halftime of the game).

[Nevadaref]

Let it go without a word. It is not your duty to educate all of the uninformed HS officials out there, and you can't do so anyway.

Prove to your daughter that you are correct by having her read the 20 rules fundamentals (no dribbling or traveling rules during a throw-in) and the relevant case book play, then go on with your happy lives without concerning yourselves with some old-timer who most likely doesn't care to learn the rule anyway. If he doesn't know it by now, he isn't going to change the way that he calls this.

I've found that very few people are interested in hearing that they did something incorrectly.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Let it go without a word. It is not your duty to educate all of the uninformed HS officials out there, and you can't do so anyway.

Prove to your daughter that you are correct by having her read the 20 rules fundamentals (no dribbling or traveling rules during a throw-in) and the relevant case book play, then go on with your happy lives without concerning yourselves with some old-timer who most likely doesn't care to learn the rule anyway. If he doesn't know it by now, he isn't going to change the way that he calls this.

I've found that very few people are interested in hearing that they did something incorrectly.

Nevada,
While I don't disagree with your statements, I can tell you that at least in Central Ohio, we have MORE THAN ENOUGH basketball officials (such is NOT the case in soccer ). Therefore, if we have a 60+ year old official who does not care to learn the rules, it is time for said official to hang up the whistle. It is not fair to the players and the coaches for an official to be uninterested in knowing the rules.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

As a coach, I am certainly going to have the official "consult" with HIS partners during a break.

How are you going to do that if he doesn't want to consult with his partners? And in my experience, very few of these guys will want to(unfortunately).

As a coach, if this call was made in your favor at a critical time, would you still immediately petition one of this guy's partners to go in and see if the call could be changed before the ball was put back in play? Just wondering from a coach's perspective.....

[mick]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Nevada,
While I don't disagree with your statements, I can tell you that at least in Central Ohio, we have MORE THAN ENOUGH basketball officials (such is NOT the case in soccer ). Therefore, if we have a 60+ year old official who does not care to learn the rules, it is time for said official to hang up the whistle. It is not fair to the players and the coaches for an official to be uninterested in knowing the rules.

MIssed the rule and he should hang it up. eh?
Is it just officials over 60 that bother you, or are you also recommending the same for officials over 20?

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by mick

MIssed the rule and he should hang it up. eh?
Is it just officials over 60 that bother you, or are you also recommending the same for officials over 20?

mick,
You COMPLETELY took my quote out of context. Nevadaref stated, "If he doesn't know it by now, he isn't going to change the way that he calls this". My point is that if we have officials who are NOT willing to keep up with the rules, it IS time for the official to hang them up.

PLEASE read my post, it CLEARLY STATES: "Therefore, if we have a 60+ year old official who does not care to learn the rules, it is time for said official to hang up the whistle."

I don't particularly care whether the official is 60+ or 30-, my statement stands. If ANY official does not care to keep up with the rules, they should stop officiating as we do have plenty of officials who are willing to keep up with the rules.

Not knowing a rule or interpretation is one thing. Nevada clearly implied -- as a response to my post that attempting to show this official that they did not know a rule -- was a waste of time because this official would not be open to learning something new.

I stand by my statement with conviction. For the officials still calling the game by the 1990 Rules Book or otherwise not willing to keep up with the latest Case Book and Interpretations, PLEASE step aside and give the newbies who WANT to keep up the opportunity to offiiate the games.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

How are you going to do that if he doesn't want to consult with his partners? And in my experience, very few of these guys will want to(unfortunately).

As a coach, if this call was made in your favor at a critical time, would you still immediately petition one of this guy's partners to go in and see if the call could be changed before the ball was put back in play? Just wondering from a coach's perspective.....

JR,
I can only REQUEST that he consult his partner. You are correct, if he doesn't want to, there is NOTHING that I can do as a coach -- at that moment.

The philosophical question you ask is an intriguing one. As a coach, my job is to coach my team. As part of that job, I will ask officials for clarifications on several items, request that an official keep an eye on certain aspects of the way our opponent is playing, etc.

In an actual game situation that you describe, I would/will certainly point out the error to the official should the call be made against my team. I would/will likely not point out the error to the official during the game should the call be made in my team's favor -- I will leave that up to my opposing counterpart to know that rule. At the same time, I will point out the error to the official after the game. I will also CONFIRM the error if a partner would identify the error and look to me for confirmation.

During games, I really try hard not to say much to the officials during the course of a game -- choosing to focus on coaching my players. I will frequently confirm officials' calls during a game when one of my player's does not feel they have done anything wrong or is unsure as to what they may have done by saying, "that was a foul/violation, you did (fill in the blank)."

I know that in most cases, the opposing coach is not going to be doing anything that will aid my team, but will typically be arguing in his/her team's favor. Therefore, I would be putting my team at a disadvantage by pointing items out on both sides of the ball. My agreement with the vast majority of the officials' calls is already doing far more than the typical opposing coach does.

Upon some additional reflection, I can tell you that in a soccer game, I did point out a major gaffe made by the referee in a close game in which our player had illegally scored on a Penalty Kick -- he put the ball in the net after it had deflected off of the cross bar and touched no other player. Nevadaref and several other soccer referees would know that this double-touch is illegal. I did point out this error to the center referee thus wiping out our goal.

A very interesting and fair question to ask.

[Jurassic Referee]

And a very interesting and honest response.

Thank you.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Have her backup to her spot before she takes the ball from this official

[Splute]

Over my short career I have only encountered these incorrect calls by experienced officials. It seems they have failed to stay current on the rules and case plays. During the game I tell them at the time they make the ruling the correct rule and let them decide to stay with their call or change. After the game I email them the correct ruling in a very supportive and cordial manner. Most reply with a thank you, because they want to get the call correct. Others do not respond at all. Either way, they now know the rule and I bet they will call it correct next time. Furthermore, although they kicked that rule, I find that their game management and coach management skills are awesome. Their ability on the floor is solid; they just didnt stay current on rules.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Splute

Over my short career I have only encountered these incorrect calls by experienced officials. It seems they have failed to stay current on the rules and case plays. During the game I tell them at the time they make the ruling the correct rule and let them decide to stay with their call or change. After the game I email them the correct ruling in a very supportive and cordial manner. Most reply with a thank you, because they want to get the call correct. Others do not respond at all. Either way, they now know the rule and I bet they will call it correct next time. Furthermore, although they kicked that rule, I find that their game management and coach management skills are awesome. Their ability on the floor is solid; they just didnt stay current on rules.

In SOME cases, I agree with you. For those folks, it is an education issue. In Ohio, a Class 1 official NEVER NEEDS TO TAKE A TEST!!! The same applies to Class 2s and Class 3s unless they want to upgrade. At the same time, we ALL need to keep up with Rules Changes, Cases and Interps. If you aren't willing to put forth the effort to accomplish this task, it is time to hang them up.

In OTHER cases, the officials have decided how they are going to call the game and they have NO INTEREST in keeping up from an education perspective. I don't care how good their game management/coach management skills may be in the cases of these officials (NOTE: BIG difference between this group and the prior group), they need to step aside.

In some areas of the country, there may be a shortage of basketball officials (as is our case with soccer officials). But, in Central Ohio, we have more officials than we have games. For those officials not interesteed in putting forth the effort to stay up with the rules, PLEASE step aside and give way to the newer officials who ARE willing to put forth the effort.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

Spent the last two days watching my daughter play HS basketball. In Fridays game I noticed when she went to put the ball into play at a designated throw in spot, the defender was right at the line like they usually are and this was causing her some difficulty. I told her that night to simply step back a couple of feet. Told her she could go back ten feet if the gym allowed but she had to stay in the 3' zone that she was standing in when she recieved the ball. Well tonights game is going along and she goes to make a throwin and gets the ball and steps straight back towards the wall. REff blows the whistle, and gives the traveling signal! WTH?? Of course I'm mortified! I don't say anything from the stands, but I see her at half time and ask what did the reff say to you? "He said I have to maintain a pivot foot during the throwin. I told her he is dead wrong and I'll show her later that I'm right. I also told her she is going to have to play the game his way and don't move once he gives you the ball for a throwin. Now my question is what should I do? I'm not a member of this official's association. Should I just ignore his ignorance and let it drop, or should I mail him the rule and hope for the best? My gut tells me to do nothing because I feel a bit out of line correcting a senior reff who isn't part of my association. Were I ever to call a game with him I would have no problem talking to him in private. He's probably 60+ and reffed way more than I have. Any suggestions?

Can your daughter, in a respectful manner, now knowing the rule, discuss it with the official during the dead ball? I betcha he looks it up after the game.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Can your daughter, in a respectful manner, now knowing the rule, discuss it with the official during the dead ball? I betcha he looks it up after the game.

Might be better if she talks to her coach at practice. If this official is at another game, the coach, when asked if there are any questions, which there almost never are, can ask about how this situation will be handled. There are two responses, one would be from the official himself who states incorrectly how that situation will be handled, and one from the other official who hopefully knows the rule. If the incorrect answer is stood by, then play by how it will be called and the coach can get to the assignors via the AD as to how the OOB throw-in is being mis-applied and can give the specific game nights.

What not to do is to hand the official the case-play during the pre-game conference.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Might be better if she talks to her coach at practice. If this official is at another game, the coach, when asked if there are any questions, which there almost never are, can ask about how this situation will be handled. There are two responses, one would be from the official himself who states incorrectly how that situation will be handled, and one from the other official who hopefully knows the rule. If the incorrect answer is stood by, then play by how it will be called and the coach can get to the assignors via the AD as to how the OOB throw-in is being mis-applied and can give the specific game nights.

What not to do is to hand the official the case-play during the pre-game conference.

I don't believe I would bring it up in the captain's meeting. I think you're only asking for trouble because you know the way this official is going to answer, he is then going to get, most likely, defensive for the remainder of he game because you've set him up for embarrassment.

Around here all the officials go over and shake the hands of each coach prior to the game. I would ask him then if you want. "Gentleman can I ask you a rules question? On a throw-in..." Otherwise I would ask the AD to contact the assignor for clarification on the ruling.

Of course all of this is assuming you can get the coach to further investigate. Just my two cents

-Josh