Today I snapped!

[tomegun]

One of my good friends has a new organization and I scheduled games for a private middle school tournament. There was this one official, new to us, who talked a great game. I mean he sounded like he could really go on th court if you listened to all the stuff he was saying.

Well, the word "bum" could be used to describe how he officiates.

I was talking to him and his partner after their game, actually his partner at the time. He says, "So what do you have for me?" I tried to continue, but I just couldn't and I snapped. To make a long story short, I told him where he could go and he will not be working with us anymore.

Moral of the story: officials who talk a good game are only entertaining until they get on the court.

[mutantducky]

kind of like the philly eagles.
to be honest though from reading your post seems like you were in a bad mood but I guess I would have to seen the game myself.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

One of my good friends has a new organization and I scheduled games for a private middle school tournament. There was this one official, new to us, who talked a great game. I mean he sounded like he could really go on th court if you listened to all the stuff he was saying.

Well, the word "bum" could be used to describe how he officiates.

I was talking to him and his partner after their game, actually his partner at the time. He says, "So what do you have for me?" I tried to continue, but I just couldn't and I snapped. To make a long story short, I told him where he could go and he will not be working with us anymore.

Moral of the story: officials who talk a good game are only entertaining until they get on the court.

You know how unhealthy it is to hold all of that in. It's nice that you finally vented. I'm just glad that I wasn't on the receiving end of your ripping! The last time I felt so small and all you did was look at me.

(Note: For those who don't know, several years ago I was operating the clock at the State Tournament and tomegun of was on the court. He was administering FTs and I had a lapse in concentration and hit the horn for a sub who came running to the table, before I realized that the ball had already been given to the shooter. Tomegun whistled it dead, retrieved the ball from the shooter, brought the sub in, and then gave me "the look." I wanted to crawl under the table. )

[bas2456]

I wanted to snap today.

6th grade rec game. 2-man crew. I'm the new lead after a made basket. Ball comes close to my line, so I'm watching the ball, even though it's in the backcourt. B1 clearly displaces A1. Partner has no whistle, so I call the foul.

At a timeout, partner comes up to me and says "If I pass on it, don't call it, it's not your area." I say "But I was watching my line, and it was clear to me that the defender displaced the dribbler."

Partner says "But he didn't gain an advantage." This is where I wanted to snap. My partner was lazy all game, and called maybe three fouls for the entire game. I wanted to tell him that he should get a better angle, but thought better of it.

How can B1 displacing A1 not be an advantage gained by B1? Tell me that, I'll give you $20.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bas2456

I wanted to snap today.

6th grade rec game. 2-man crew. I'm the new lead after a made basket. Ball comes close to my line, so I'm watching the ball, even though it's in the backcourt. B1 clearly displaces A1. Partner has no whistle, so I call the foul.

At a timeout, partner comes up to me and says "If I pass on it, don't call it, it's not your area." I say "But I was watching my line, and it was clear to me that the defender displaced the dribbler."

Partner says "But he didn't gain an advantage." This is where I wanted to snap. My partner was lazy all game, and called maybe three fouls for the entire game. I wanted to tell him that he should get a better angle, but thought better of it.

How can B1 displacing A1 not be an advantage gained by B1? Tell me that, I'll give you $20.

In your spot, I would not have called the foul. I would have only been looking for an OOB violation. I would have left the decision on contact to my partner in his primary area.

It may have been a foul, but it wasn't your decision to make. If he screws it up, that's his business.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bas2456

I wanted to snap today.

6th grade rec game. 2-man crew. I'm the new lead after a made basket. Ball comes close to my line, so I'm watching the ball, even though it's in the backcourt. B1 clearly displaces A1. Partner has no whistle, so I call the foul.

At a timeout, partner comes up to me and says "If I pass on it, don't call it, it's not your area." I say "But I was watching my line, and it was clear to me that the defender displaced the dribbler."

Partner says "But he didn't gain an advantage." This is where I wanted to snap. My partner was lazy all game, and called maybe three fouls for the entire game. I wanted to tell him that he should get a better angle, but thought better of it.

How can B1 displacing A1 not be an advantage gained by B1? Tell me that, I'll give you $20.

I would have told you the same thing.

It's your line and if it's violated, you should make the OOB call.

You have no business calling a foul in the BC from the endline.

You have a partner, you let him live and die with what he does/doesn't call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Not to pile on......ah, hell, to pile on.......I agree completely with Nevada and BktBallRef. Save your second-guessing for the dressing room. You just put your partner's on-court credibility right in the ol' dumper.

[frozenrope22]

From a coaches perspective. If one referee misses a call and the other referee could/can make the call then I expect them to make the call. I don't like the "its not my call coach" response. I am not talking about every questionable call but this one seems obvious from the way you describe it.

[bas2456]

I understand completely what you guys are saying about why I should let my partner decide whether or not to call the foul.

However, I don't completely agree with the philosophy. Maybe it's because I'm young and still pretty new at this, but my thinking is, aren't we a team out there? If I'm watching my line anyway, why should I watch just for OOB?

Isn't it our job, as a whole, to enforce the rules of the game?

Again I understand what you all are saying and I don't want to start a pissing match, just offering my two cents.

His credibility with me was bruised anyway when he called a 3 second violation from trail when the ball was in my area. I had counted to 2.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bas2456

However, I don't completely agree with the philosophy. Maybe it's because I'm young and still pretty new at this, but my thinking is, aren't we a team out there? If I'm watching my line anyway, why should I watch just for OOB?

If it's a significant enough foul, then you need to go get it. A bump and displacement on a dribbler in the BC is usually not significant enough.

Deciding where to draw that line is a very hard part of the art of officiating.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If it's a significant enough foul, then you need to go get it. A bump and displacement on a dribbler in the BC is usually not significant enough.

Deciding where to draw that line is a very hard part of the art of officiating.

To add to what Bob said:

I have always followed the "philosophy" that there are three types of fouls.
1)Oh, that's a foul.
2)Oh my, that's a foul!
3)Oh my God!! That's a FOUL!!!

If I "see" a #1 happen outside my PCA, I leave it alone. If I see a #2 happen outside my PCA, I make sure we discuss it at the next break (timeout, end of period, etc.). If I see a #3 happen, I will go get it anywhere on the court at any point in the game. And I expect the same awareness from my partners.

So if the displacement you saw was something that made you cringe inside and scream in your head "Oh my God!!" then you were absolutely right to go and get it. If it just made you go "Oh, that should have been called", then leave it alone.

Believe it or not, that philosophy almost always (The vast, vast majority of the time) makes the game go better.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bas2456

1) However, I don't completely agree with the philosophy. Maybe it's because I'm young and still pretty new at this, but my thinking is, aren't we a team out there? If I'm watching my line anyway, why should I watch just for OOB?

2) Isn't it our job, as a whole, to enforce the rules of the game?

3) His credibility with me was bruised anyway when he called a 3 second violation from trail when the ball was in my area. I had counted to 2.

1) Yup, you're a team. And you're making the team look bad when you start making calls for your partner(s).

2) I wish it was that simplistic. It would make what we do so much easier. There are just too many variables involved to have a catch-all comment like that be applicable to everything that happens out there. Each play is different, and we have to call it that way. You may be correct on a play in your partner's area where your partner got screened out and a call HAD to be made. But when your partner has a good look at a play in his primary and decides to pass on it, then all you are doing is questioning his judgment. Best to leave that to the players and coaches.

3) Two wrongs don't make a right. You're pissed because HE made a call in your primary, but you also think that it's OK for YOU to make a call in his primary. Um, what's wrong with that kinda logic? Don't you maybe think that your credibility with him also got bruised when you reached into his primary? Think about it.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tomegun

He says, "So what do you have for me?" I tried to continue, but I just couldn't and I snapped. To make a long story short, I told him where he could go and he will not be working with us anymore.

Tom, not having been there and seen the guy, just going by what you posted..the guy asked for feedback. Did it start out with you giving him some criticism and him doing the "Yeah, but..." thing? Or did you go straight from "What have you got for me?" to snapping and drop-kicking his a$$?

If it was the first, good for you.

If it was the second, was he really that bad? Could you have gotten the point across to him that he was that bad without snapping and letting him walk out of there thinking YOU are the jerk?

Just wondering what all happened, not trying to attack you, Tom. I just know that some of MY best learning experiences have come through having to deal with officials like this guy - on the court or at camps as an evaluator/clinician.

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Yup, you're a team. And you're making the team look bad when you start making calls for your partner(s).
It also makes the team look bad when things that need to be called aren't called. The foul may not have been the most outrageous foul in the history of basketball, but I thought it needed to be called.


2) I wish it was that simplistic. It would make what we do so much easier. There are just too many variables involved to have a catch-all comment like that be applicable to everything that happens out there. Each play is different, and we have to call it that way. You may be correct on a play in your partner's area where your partner got screened out and a call HAD to be made. But when your partner has a good look at a play in his primary and decides to pass on it, then all you are doing is questioning his judgment. Best to leave that to the players and coaches.
I see your point. I think, though, that officiating should be less about politics and more about getting the play right.


3) Two wrongs don't make a right. You're pissed because HE made a call in your primary, but you also think that it's OK for YOU to make a call in his primary. Um, what's wrong with that kinda logic? Don't you maybe think that your credibility with him also got bruised when you reached into his primary? Think about it.

I wasn't making the call I made out of revenge. I called what I thought needed to be called. No I wasn't happy when he made the 3 second call, but I put it behind me and moved on. Maybe my credibility with him did get bruised, I don't know. I would hope that I called a good enough game before/after this call that it's not all the guy thinks about afterward.

Live and learn. Hopefully I'm better after that and because of this discussion.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Tom, not having been there and seen the guy, just going by what you posted..the guy asked for feedback. Did it start out with you giving him some criticism and him doing the "Yeah, but..." thing? Or did you go straight from "What have you got for me?" to snapping and drop-kicking his a$$?

If it was the first, good for you.

If it was the second, was he really that bad? Could you have gotten the point across to him that he was that bad without snapping and letting him walk out of there thinking YOU are the jerk?

Just wondering what all happened, not trying to attack you, Tom. I just know that some of MY best learning experiences have come through having to deal with officials like this guy - on the court or at camps as an evaluator/clinician.

It is probably hard for me to post how this whole thing went, but it had nothing to do with my mood or anything like that.

This guy talked a lot about how he was a good official and there is no such thing as a perfect official. I called him to stress professionalism, uniform, etc. He cuts me off before I finish - like he always does - and says something like, "Listen, I've been doing this for 20 years..."

There were two games on Friday night, a normal night for high school basketball, so this guy worked two games. My friend called me late that night and said we may have had a problem at the site. I called this guy on my way to the gym on Saturday to ask how things went. He said everything was OK, but one kid got hurt. I get to the gym and ask the tournament director how things went on Friday. He said everything was OK, but the crew was kind of shaky.

So we are sitting there on Saturday before he works. He is still telling me how good he is and I'm trying to warn him about talking himself into a bind. Remember, I spoke to him about his uniform and he tried to tell me he knew all of that. Well, his shoes looked like garbage, his pants were basically a dark dark grey, he had on a belt, he had on WHITE SOCKS and basically looked horrible.

He asked me if we are going to have a camp and questioned what clinicians (he couldn't even say that word) we are going to have. Once we told him he was like, "Yeah, it is good to have college officials be clinicians. I've been trained by college officials."

He finally works his game and is horrible. Oh, he is at a level we could work with and train, but then he pushed me too far. Up to this point, on the phone and before the game, he had been trying to talk over me - not letting me finish what I was saying - and was generally being a alpha male. It was kind of funny and I didn't have a problem with it - remember I warned him about talking and not being able to deliver.

After the game I was talking to his partner first. I was telling him some things he could work on. His partner was accepting the information without saying anything (he was nodding in agreement). Before I could get through with his partner, while I was in mid sentence, he asked what I had for him. Again, being aggressive even though he didn't deliver what he said he could. This is when I had had enough and told him if he wanted any feedback from me he was going to come at me differently. I told him he wasn't even close to being where he thought he was as an official.

So then I find out that a player got hurt on Friday and he didn't kill the clock like he should have. The player broke his leg!! The tournament director, who has future tournaments for us to work, doesn't want to see him.

There are other organizations that only worry about having warm bodies on the floor and I'm sure he can work with them. However, I will not be calling on him in the future.

And now you know the rest of the story.