Today I snapped!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

One of my good friends has a new organization and I scheduled games for a private middle school tournament. There was this one official, new to us, who talked a great game. I mean he sounded like he could really go on th court if you listened to all the stuff he was saying.

Well, the word "bum" could be used to describe how he officiates.

I was talking to him and his partner after their game, actually his partner at the time. He says, "So what do you have for me?" I tried to continue, but I just couldn't and I snapped. To make a long story short, I told him where he could go and he will not be working with us anymore.

Moral of the story: officials who talk a good game are only entertaining until they get on the court.

You know how unhealthy it is to hold all of that in. It's nice that you finally vented. I'm just glad that I wasn't on the receiving end of your ripping! The last time I felt so small and all you did was look at me.

(Note: For those who don't know, several years ago I was operating the clock at the State Tournament and tomegun of was on the court. He was administering FTs and I had a lapse in concentration and hit the horn for a sub who came running to the table, before I realized that the ball had already been given to the shooter. Tomegun whistled it dead, retrieved the ball from the shooter, brought the sub in, and then gave me "the look." I wanted to crawl under the table. )

[bas2456]

I wanted to snap today.

6th grade rec game. 2-man crew. I'm the new lead after a made basket. Ball comes close to my line, so I'm watching the ball, even though it's in the backcourt. B1 clearly displaces A1. Partner has no whistle, so I call the foul.

At a timeout, partner comes up to me and says "If I pass on it, don't call it, it's not your area." I say "But I was watching my line, and it was clear to me that the defender displaced the dribbler."

Partner says "But he didn't gain an advantage." This is where I wanted to snap. My partner was lazy all game, and called maybe three fouls for the entire game. I wanted to tell him that he should get a better angle, but thought better of it.

How can B1 displacing A1 not be an advantage gained by B1? Tell me that, I'll give you $20.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bas2456

I wanted to snap today.

6th grade rec game. 2-man crew. I'm the new lead after a made basket. Ball comes close to my line, so I'm watching the ball, even though it's in the backcourt. B1 clearly displaces A1. Partner has no whistle, so I call the foul.

At a timeout, partner comes up to me and says "If I pass on it, don't call it, it's not your area." I say "But I was watching my line, and it was clear to me that the defender displaced the dribbler."

Partner says "But he didn't gain an advantage." This is where I wanted to snap. My partner was lazy all game, and called maybe three fouls for the entire game. I wanted to tell him that he should get a better angle, but thought better of it.

How can B1 displacing A1 not be an advantage gained by B1? Tell me that, I'll give you $20.

In your spot, I would not have called the foul. I would have only been looking for an OOB violation. I would have left the decision on contact to my partner in his primary area.

It may have been a foul, but it wasn't your decision to make. If he screws it up, that's his business.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bas2456

I wanted to snap today.

6th grade rec game. 2-man crew. I'm the new lead after a made basket. Ball comes close to my line, so I'm watching the ball, even though it's in the backcourt. B1 clearly displaces A1. Partner has no whistle, so I call the foul.

At a timeout, partner comes up to me and says "If I pass on it, don't call it, it's not your area." I say "But I was watching my line, and it was clear to me that the defender displaced the dribbler."

Partner says "But he didn't gain an advantage." This is where I wanted to snap. My partner was lazy all game, and called maybe three fouls for the entire game. I wanted to tell him that he should get a better angle, but thought better of it.

How can B1 displacing A1 not be an advantage gained by B1? Tell me that, I'll give you $20.

I would have told you the same thing.

It's your line and if it's violated, you should make the OOB call.

You have no business calling a foul in the BC from the endline.

You have a partner, you let him live and die with what he does/doesn't call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Not to pile on......ah, hell, to pile on.......I agree completely with Nevada and BktBallRef. Save your second-guessing for the dressing room. You just put your partner's on-court credibility right in the ol' dumper.

[frozenrope22]

From a coaches perspective. If one referee misses a call and the other referee could/can make the call then I expect them to make the call. I don't like the "its not my call coach" response. I am not talking about every questionable call but this one seems obvious from the way you describe it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by frozenrope22

From a coaches perspective. If one referee misses a call and the other referee could/can make the call then I expect them to make the call. I don't like the "its not my call coach" response. I am not talking about every questionable call but this one seems obvious from the way you describe it.

You're missing the point, coach.

If he's blocked and can't see it, that's one thing. I'll help him.

If he sees the play and judges it not to be a foul, then I have to respect that.

And so do you because I'm not making that call.

[bas2456]

I understand completely what you guys are saying about why I should let my partner decide whether or not to call the foul.

However, I don't completely agree with the philosophy. Maybe it's because I'm young and still pretty new at this, but my thinking is, aren't we a team out there? If I'm watching my line anyway, why should I watch just for OOB?

Isn't it our job, as a whole, to enforce the rules of the game?

Again I understand what you all are saying and I don't want to start a pissing match, just offering my two cents.

His credibility with me was bruised anyway when he called a 3 second violation from trail when the ball was in my area. I had counted to 2.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bas2456

However, I don't completely agree with the philosophy. Maybe it's because I'm young and still pretty new at this, but my thinking is, aren't we a team out there? If I'm watching my line anyway, why should I watch just for OOB?

If it's a significant enough foul, then you need to go get it. A bump and displacement on a dribbler in the BC is usually not significant enough.

Deciding where to draw that line is a very hard part of the art of officiating.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If it's a significant enough foul, then you need to go get it. A bump and displacement on a dribbler in the BC is usually not significant enough.

Deciding where to draw that line is a very hard part of the art of officiating.

To add to what Bob said:

I have always followed the "philosophy" that there are three types of fouls.
1)Oh, that's a foul.
2)Oh my, that's a foul!
3)Oh my God!! That's a FOUL!!!

If I "see" a #1 happen outside my PCA, I leave it alone. If I see a #2 happen outside my PCA, I make sure we discuss it at the next break (timeout, end of period, etc.). If I see a #3 happen, I will go get it anywhere on the court at any point in the game. And I expect the same awareness from my partners.

So if the displacement you saw was something that made you cringe inside and scream in your head "Oh my God!!" then you were absolutely right to go and get it. If it just made you go "Oh, that should have been called", then leave it alone.

Believe it or not, that philosophy almost always (The vast, vast majority of the time) makes the game go better.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bas2456

1) However, I don't completely agree with the philosophy. Maybe it's because I'm young and still pretty new at this, but my thinking is, aren't we a team out there? If I'm watching my line anyway, why should I watch just for OOB?

2) Isn't it our job, as a whole, to enforce the rules of the game?

3) His credibility with me was bruised anyway when he called a 3 second violation from trail when the ball was in my area. I had counted to 2.

1) Yup, you're a team. And you're making the team look bad when you start making calls for your partner(s).

2) I wish it was that simplistic. It would make what we do so much easier. There are just too many variables involved to have a catch-all comment like that be applicable to everything that happens out there. Each play is different, and we have to call it that way. You may be correct on a play in your partner's area where your partner got screened out and a call HAD to be made. But when your partner has a good look at a play in his primary and decides to pass on it, then all you are doing is questioning his judgment. Best to leave that to the players and coaches.

3) Two wrongs don't make a right. You're pissed because HE made a call in your primary, but you also think that it's OK for YOU to make a call in his primary. Um, what's wrong with that kinda logic? Don't you maybe think that your credibility with him also got bruised when you reached into his primary? Think about it.

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Yup, you're a team. And you're making the team look bad when you start making calls for your partner(s).
It also makes the team look bad when things that need to be called aren't called. The foul may not have been the most outrageous foul in the history of basketball, but I thought it needed to be called.


2) I wish it was that simplistic. It would make what we do so much easier. There are just too many variables involved to have a catch-all comment like that be applicable to everything that happens out there. Each play is different, and we have to call it that way. You may be correct on a play in your partner's area where your partner got screened out and a call HAD to be made. But when your partner has a good look at a play in his primary and decides to pass on it, then all you are doing is questioning his judgment. Best to leave that to the players and coaches.
I see your point. I think, though, that officiating should be less about politics and more about getting the play right.


3) Two wrongs don't make a right. You're pissed because HE made a call in your primary, but you also think that it's OK for YOU to make a call in his primary. Um, what's wrong with that kinda logic? Don't you maybe think that your credibility with him also got bruised when you reached into his primary? Think about it.

I wasn't making the call I made out of revenge. I called what I thought needed to be called. No I wasn't happy when he made the 3 second call, but I put it behind me and moved on. Maybe my credibility with him did get bruised, I don't know. I would hope that I called a good enough game before/after this call that it's not all the guy thinks about afterward.

Live and learn. Hopefully I'm better after that and because of this discussion.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bas2456

I understand completely what you guys are saying about why I should let my partner decide whether or not to call the foul.

However, I don't completely agree with the philosophy. Maybe it's because I'm young and still pretty new at this, but my thinking is, aren't we a team out there? If I'm watching my line anyway, why should I watch just for OOB?

Evidently you don't completely understand. And yes, you are young and still pretty new at this. So, listen to what we're saying.

You have no business making that call.

Isn't it our job, as a whole, to enforce the rules of the game?

Let's change sports for a sec.

You're working the plate and a runner from first is tagged on a second base safe. The field umpire signals safe are you going to go out and call the runner out so the crew can enforce the rules of the game?

You're working referee behind the QB, when he throws a long pass into the secondary. You see the receiver is bumped but the back judge doesn't throw a flag for pass interference. Are you as the referee going to throw a flag so the crew can enforce the rules of the game?

His credibility with me was bruised anyway when he called a 3 second violation from trail when the ball was in my area. I had counted to 2.

The difference is the trail can make a 3 second call in the lane in two man. You should never make a call in the BC from the lead on the endline.

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Evidently you don't completely understand. And yes, you are young and still pretty new at this. So, listen to what we're saying.

You have no business making that call.



Let's change sports for a sec.

You're working the plate and a runner from first is tagged on a second base safe. The field umpire signals safe are you going to go out and call the runner out so the crew can enforce the rules of the game?

You're working referee behind the QB, when he throws a long pass into the secondary. You see the receiver is bumped but the back judge doesn't throw a flag for pass interference. Are you as the referee going to throw a flag so the crew can enforce the rules of the game?



The difference is the trail can make a 3 second call in the lane in two man. You should never make a call in the BC from the lead on the endline.

I was nowhere near the end line. Not sure if I said that in the OP. My partner yesterday called maybe three fouls all game, and was otherwise extremely lazy all game. I thought there needed to be a foul called there, so I called it. Next time, I'll take everyone's advice into account, and learn from it. We're always trying to improve aren't we?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You know how unhealthy it is to hold all of that in. It's nice that you finally vented. I'm just glad that I wasn't on the receiving end of your ripping! The last time I felt so small and all you did was look at me.

(Note: For those who don't know, several years ago I was operating the clock at the State Tournament and tomegun of was on the court. He was administering FTs and I had a lapse in concentration and hit the horn for a sub who came running to the table, before I realized that the ball had already been given to the shooter. Tomegun whistled it dead, retrieved the ball from the shooter, brought the sub in, and then gave me "the look." I wanted to crawl under the table. )

I don't remember this, but it could have happened. Sorry