Today I snapped!

[Jurassic Referee]

Not to pile on......ah, hell, to pile on.......I agree completely with Nevada and BktBallRef. Save your second-guessing for the dressing room. You just put your partner's on-court credibility right in the ol' dumper.

[frozenrope22]

From a coaches perspective. If one referee misses a call and the other referee could/can make the call then I expect them to make the call. I don't like the "its not my call coach" response. I am not talking about every questionable call but this one seems obvious from the way you describe it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by frozenrope22

From a coaches perspective. If one referee misses a call and the other referee could/can make the call then I expect them to make the call. I don't like the "its not my call coach" response. I am not talking about every questionable call but this one seems obvious from the way you describe it.

You're missing the point, coach.

If he's blocked and can't see it, that's one thing. I'll help him.

If he sees the play and judges it not to be a foul, then I have to respect that.

And so do you because I'm not making that call.

[bas2456]

I understand completely what you guys are saying about why I should let my partner decide whether or not to call the foul.

However, I don't completely agree with the philosophy. Maybe it's because I'm young and still pretty new at this, but my thinking is, aren't we a team out there? If I'm watching my line anyway, why should I watch just for OOB?

Isn't it our job, as a whole, to enforce the rules of the game?

Again I understand what you all are saying and I don't want to start a pissing match, just offering my two cents.

His credibility with me was bruised anyway when he called a 3 second violation from trail when the ball was in my area. I had counted to 2.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bas2456

However, I don't completely agree with the philosophy. Maybe it's because I'm young and still pretty new at this, but my thinking is, aren't we a team out there? If I'm watching my line anyway, why should I watch just for OOB?

If it's a significant enough foul, then you need to go get it. A bump and displacement on a dribbler in the BC is usually not significant enough.

Deciding where to draw that line is a very hard part of the art of officiating.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If it's a significant enough foul, then you need to go get it. A bump and displacement on a dribbler in the BC is usually not significant enough.

Deciding where to draw that line is a very hard part of the art of officiating.

To add to what Bob said:

I have always followed the "philosophy" that there are three types of fouls.
1)Oh, that's a foul.
2)Oh my, that's a foul!
3)Oh my God!! That's a FOUL!!!

If I "see" a #1 happen outside my PCA, I leave it alone. If I see a #2 happen outside my PCA, I make sure we discuss it at the next break (timeout, end of period, etc.). If I see a #3 happen, I will go get it anywhere on the court at any point in the game. And I expect the same awareness from my partners.

So if the displacement you saw was something that made you cringe inside and scream in your head "Oh my God!!" then you were absolutely right to go and get it. If it just made you go "Oh, that should have been called", then leave it alone.

Believe it or not, that philosophy almost always (The vast, vast majority of the time) makes the game go better.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bas2456

1) However, I don't completely agree with the philosophy. Maybe it's because I'm young and still pretty new at this, but my thinking is, aren't we a team out there? If I'm watching my line anyway, why should I watch just for OOB?

2) Isn't it our job, as a whole, to enforce the rules of the game?

3) His credibility with me was bruised anyway when he called a 3 second violation from trail when the ball was in my area. I had counted to 2.

1) Yup, you're a team. And you're making the team look bad when you start making calls for your partner(s).

2) I wish it was that simplistic. It would make what we do so much easier. There are just too many variables involved to have a catch-all comment like that be applicable to everything that happens out there. Each play is different, and we have to call it that way. You may be correct on a play in your partner's area where your partner got screened out and a call HAD to be made. But when your partner has a good look at a play in his primary and decides to pass on it, then all you are doing is questioning his judgment. Best to leave that to the players and coaches.

3) Two wrongs don't make a right. You're pissed because HE made a call in your primary, but you also think that it's OK for YOU to make a call in his primary. Um, what's wrong with that kinda logic? Don't you maybe think that your credibility with him also got bruised when you reached into his primary? Think about it.

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Yup, you're a team. And you're making the team look bad when you start making calls for your partner(s).
It also makes the team look bad when things that need to be called aren't called. The foul may not have been the most outrageous foul in the history of basketball, but I thought it needed to be called.


2) I wish it was that simplistic. It would make what we do so much easier. There are just too many variables involved to have a catch-all comment like that be applicable to everything that happens out there. Each play is different, and we have to call it that way. You may be correct on a play in your partner's area where your partner got screened out and a call HAD to be made. But when your partner has a good look at a play in his primary and decides to pass on it, then all you are doing is questioning his judgment. Best to leave that to the players and coaches.
I see your point. I think, though, that officiating should be less about politics and more about getting the play right.


3) Two wrongs don't make a right. You're pissed because HE made a call in your primary, but you also think that it's OK for YOU to make a call in his primary. Um, what's wrong with that kinda logic? Don't you maybe think that your credibility with him also got bruised when you reached into his primary? Think about it.

I wasn't making the call I made out of revenge. I called what I thought needed to be called. No I wasn't happy when he made the 3 second call, but I put it behind me and moved on. Maybe my credibility with him did get bruised, I don't know. I would hope that I called a good enough game before/after this call that it's not all the guy thinks about afterward.

Live and learn. Hopefully I'm better after that and because of this discussion.

[Amesman]

Sorry to switch back to the offshoot this thread took, but if some of the vets looking in could comment, it would be appreciated. As to not reaching / letting our partner live and did with calls/non-calls, how do you manage when the partner is clearly not calling enough and coach(es) are screaming for a few more whistles? Lately, it seems, I've had older (frankly) partners not interested in lingering at under level games any longer than they have to.

The real rub comes when partner passes on a handful of hacks under the basket and then if I, say, pass on marginal bumping bringing the ball up, here it comes from the bench or stands. "C'mon, you guys are killing us!" or something milder (that wouldn't warrant T). Painted with the same broad brush and not liking it. Not going to throw partner under the bus, but how do you handle a) coach -- preferably so you're not getting smeared and b) with partner (typically, though not always, a veteran guy who will be set in his ways).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Amesman

Sorry to switch back to the offshoot this thread took, but if some of the vets looking in could comment, it would be appreciated. As to not reaching / letting our partner live and did with calls/non-calls, how do you manage when the partner is clearly not calling enough and coach(es) are screaming for a few more whistles? Lately, it seems, I've had older (frankly) partners not interested in lingering at under level games any longer than they have to.

The real rub comes when partner passes on a handful of hacks under the basket and then if I, say, pass on marginal bumping bringing the ball up, here it comes from the bench or stands. "C'mon, you guys are killing us!" or something milder (that wouldn't warrant T). Painted with the same broad brush and not liking it. Not going to throw partner under the bus, but how do you handle a) coach -- preferably so you're not getting smeared and b) with partner (typically, though not always, a veteran guy who will be set in his ways).

The hilighted phrases have nothing to do with your partner. Don't let the crowd, coaches, and benches influence your opinion or dealings with partners.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The hilighted phrases have nothing to do with your partner. Don't let the crowd, coaches, and benches influence your opinion or dealings with partners.

BNR, got that. I agree and understand (and have been around long enough that a loud mouth is not going to wilt me or change my beliefs). I guess what I was getting at was the same questions for when your partner is really just being very lazy about calling fouls/violations or is just bad this day. As a newer official, I'll take my lumps on occasion as it is; I'd rather not take any more extra than necessary if they're not at my hand. (Boy, I hope that doesn't sound self-serving.)

I guess it comes down to: At what point and how can one, in essence say, "Hey, Coach, I agree with you and wouldn't have called that a foul" or, an urge I get fairly frequently, "Hey, Coach, there's a thing called 'reaching' and I'm not going to come from out at the trail position to correct my partner on a hack he passed on right in front of him on the baseline."

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Amesman

Sorry to switch back to the offshoot this thread took, but if some of the vets looking in could comment, it would be appreciated. As to not reaching / letting our partner live and did with calls/non-calls, how do you manage when the partner is clearly not calling enough and coach(es) are screaming for a few more whistles? Lately, it seems, I've had older (frankly) partners not interested in lingering at under level games any longer than they have to.

The real rub comes when partner passes on a handful of hacks under the basket and then if I, say, pass on marginal bumping bringing the ball up, here it comes from the bench or stands. "C'mon, you guys are killing us!" or something milder (that wouldn't warrant T). Painted with the same broad brush and not liking it. Not going to throw partner under the bus, but how do you handle a) coach -- preferably so you're not getting smeared and b) with partner (typically, though not always, a veteran guy who will be set in his ways).

Go back and read posts 10 and 11...they answer your question pretty well I think.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bas2456

I understand completely what you guys are saying about why I should let my partner decide whether or not to call the foul.

However, I don't completely agree with the philosophy. Maybe it's because I'm young and still pretty new at this, but my thinking is, aren't we a team out there? If I'm watching my line anyway, why should I watch just for OOB?

Evidently you don't completely understand. And yes, you are young and still pretty new at this. So, listen to what we're saying.

You have no business making that call.

Isn't it our job, as a whole, to enforce the rules of the game?

Let's change sports for a sec.

You're working the plate and a runner from first is tagged on a second base safe. The field umpire signals safe are you going to go out and call the runner out so the crew can enforce the rules of the game?

You're working referee behind the QB, when he throws a long pass into the secondary. You see the receiver is bumped but the back judge doesn't throw a flag for pass interference. Are you as the referee going to throw a flag so the crew can enforce the rules of the game?

His credibility with me was bruised anyway when he called a 3 second violation from trail when the ball was in my area. I had counted to 2.

The difference is the trail can make a 3 second call in the lane in two man. You should never make a call in the BC from the lead on the endline.

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Evidently you don't completely understand. And yes, you are young and still pretty new at this. So, listen to what we're saying.

You have no business making that call.



Let's change sports for a sec.

You're working the plate and a runner from first is tagged on a second base safe. The field umpire signals safe are you going to go out and call the runner out so the crew can enforce the rules of the game?

You're working referee behind the QB, when he throws a long pass into the secondary. You see the receiver is bumped but the back judge doesn't throw a flag for pass interference. Are you as the referee going to throw a flag so the crew can enforce the rules of the game?



The difference is the trail can make a 3 second call in the lane in two man. You should never make a call in the BC from the lead on the endline.

I was nowhere near the end line. Not sure if I said that in the OP. My partner yesterday called maybe three fouls all game, and was otherwise extremely lazy all game. I thought there needed to be a foul called there, so I called it. Next time, I'll take everyone's advice into account, and learn from it. We're always trying to improve aren't we?

[Back In The Saddle]

You're in a tough spot with a partner like that. A lazy partner who just wants to get the game over ASAP poses quite a challenge.

From my experience, you've got a small number of options. The first is to try and persuade him to do a little thing I like to call "referee". The second is GiGdGo, do your thing and let him do his. If neither of those works, and the game is getting away from the crew, then and only then do you expand your area a little to pick up only what must be called. If the game is unnecessarily rough, start by getting the off-ball stuff. And if you're going to maintain anything that looks like consistency, you need to force regular switches.

Notice I have suggested nothing that endorses reaching 40 feet to grab a plain old foul your partner has passed on.

YMMV