T Up a Fan?!?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Smitty

OK I give up.

Smart move, Smitty. NevadaRef has tunnel vision, is never open to the possibility he could be wrong, and is entirely too dogmatic. Personally, I think he would make a very poor partner.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Again, the foul can be issued if it interferes with the game. I don't believe these actions interfere with anything, except for maybe the few cases where the medical personnel are bothered by overzealous nervous parents.

Here's the kicker. If I'm the parent, those medical personnel had damn well better be following my direction and allowing me to make the decisions. I'm there, consult me. You don't get to make those decisions without a parent's consent when the parent is there.

My only concern with the OP was the fact that the parent ripped into the officials. I guarantee you, if my kid is that hurt that I'm coming down, I won't even know the officials are there. It's me, my child, and the medics.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by chseagle

A parent can be involved throughout the whole process, however when medical personnel are directly involved, the parents are to be as active bystanders (answering medical history questions), not being in the middle of everything getting in the way.

If no medical personnel are available, the parent can become more directly involved.

I'm surprised it's not a regulation for all high school athletic events that EMS must be present. Apparently the NCAA has this regulation, as is what I heard after the unfortunate incident with Derrick Roland.

Unfortunately not all schools have the luxury of having Athletic Trainers available to them at all times.

chseagle, sorry partner but you have no say in what I do if my child is injured in a game. If I choose to remain by his/her side during the entire time medical personnel are atending, that is what I will do. The best thing you can do is sit behind the scorer's table and say a prayer.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The problem with the way that you are handling this is that there is absolutely no deterrent to spectators from coming onto the court whenever they deem it necessary.

I don't believe in permitting this type of behavior. Therefore, I favor having strong sanctions against it. You seem to be okay with random people coming onto the court during games which you officiate. I don't feel that that provides a safe environment for the participants and officials, so I'm not okay with it.

Random fans? Seriously, Nevada, we're talking about parents coming down during an apparently serious injury situation; not random fans strolling onto the court.

You gonna T the home team when some fans cut across the corner of the court on their way to the bleachers? No, you let GM deal with it until it actually affects the game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Smart move, Smitty. NevadaRef has tunnel vision, is never open to the possibility he could be wrong, and is entirely too dogmatic. Personally, I think he would make a very poor partner.

Merry Christmas to you too.

BTW I read an interesting sentiment lately...

"We have to do a much better job of creating a zone of predictability for players and coaches, of making officiating more of a science and less of an art."
"I came up at a time when refereeing was all feel. But coaches want absolutes. And referees should want absolutes."
John Adams, NCAA Coordinator of Men's Basketball Officiating

It seems that being dogmatic has a future.

[BktBallRef]

Let it go, Adam. He can't see the forest for the trees.

Merry Christmas everyone.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by chseagle

A parent can be involved throughout the whole process, however when medical personnel are directly involved, the parents are to be as active bystanders (answering medical history questions), not being in the middle of everything getting in the way.

If no medical personnel are available, the parent can become more directly involved.

Sorry, but your statement has no basis in fact from a legal standpoint. You clearly have no concept of the legal and ethical principles of informed consent regarding medical diagnosis and treatment and who can legally make related decisions. Except in extreme life threatening circumstances, medical personnel may not treat without consent.Those "signed permissions" some want to place so much stock in are only valid if the parent/guardian are not physically present to make the decisions in person.

Oh, and in response to the question you asked Smitty, I do have a law enforcement background with extensive training in security and crowd control - news flash....a parent attempting to go to the side of an apparently significantly injured child does not pose a threat from either standpoint. Preventing them from exercising their legal rights could, however, be a significant liability issue....and likely a criminal one as well.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

First, no one takes this oath as a parent. Second, it's irrelevant.
Third, if I, as a parent, am at the game, I will make all decisions on my child's medical care with consultation of the doctors. I know my child's medical history better than anyone else in that building.

And yes, my parental rights trump everything else. If I make a decision, and some coach or doctor I don't know tries to stop me, there will be legal hell to pay like you've never seen.

And, if, as a parent, I decided I needed to be on the court with my child, you would be putting yourself in physical danger by trying to prevent me from getting on the court.

6 years ago, my younger brother (26 at the time) had cancer removed from his chest. That first night after surgery, he went into respiratory arrest due to a morphine overdose. My dad made it clear to hospital staff that they would have to have him arrested in order to keep. Do you think any other father would be different? Do you think any high school security person is going to keep him off the court?

I am not saying completely ban/bar the parent from assisting, however they should not be getting in the way of medical personnel by being right there by the student-athlete's side. I have had first responder training, due to having the security/crowd control training, in instances where a patron directly interferes with another patron getting direct medical treatment, the patron causing the interference will be asked to leave or will be removed to a safe distance. If by police intervention, so be it.

Anyone in the medical profession lives by the Hippocratic Oath, if harm is being done by someone being in their way, they have the right to have that person removed regardless of who that person is. If a parent gets in the way of a medical professional trying to save their child's life, & the medical professional cannot do their duty due to the interference, the parent can have charges brought against them (the charge would vary depending on the juridictional rules/regulations).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

chseagle, sorry partner but you have no say in what I do if my child is injured in a game. If I choose to remain by his/her side during the entire time medical personnel are atending, that is what I will do. The best thing you can do is sit behind the scorer's table and say a prayer.

That's fine. Be there if you choose. Just accept the consequences of your actions like any other in life.

I must ask if you going to insist upon remaining by your child's side in the operating room too, and during the transport? If not, are you being consistent in your stance? I guess that I don't see why do you believe that you must stand right there and hover over the medical personnel on the basketball court, but not in the trauma ward at the local hospital?
Would you tell the doctors at the hospital that they cannot treat your child without you physically present in the room? I think that you are failing to see the big picture. For some reason you, like many others, are fixated on the emergency situation happening on a basketball court and somehow feel compelled to be right next to the scene. Got news for you, if your kid is injured in a car wreck and taken to the hospital via ambulance from the scene, you may not see your child until after the surgeon is finished. The most that you might get is a doctor/hospital administrator coming out into the hallway to fill you in on the situation and ask you to sign a treatment permission form. You actually getting to go back and see your kid is unlikely, if the situation is unstable.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I am not saying completely ban/bar the parent from assisting, however they should not be getting in the way of medical personnel by being right there by the student-athlete's side. I have had first responder training, due to having the security/crowd control training, in instances where a patron directly interferes with another patron getting direct medical treatment, the patron causing the interference will be asked to leave or will be removed to a safe distance. If by police intervention, so be it.

Anyone in the medical profession lives by the Hippocratic Oath, if harm is being done by someone being in their way, they have the right to have that person removed regardless of who that person is. If a parent gets in the way of a medical professional trying to save their child's life, & the medical professional cannot do their duty due to the interference, the parent can have charges brought against them (the charge would vary depending on the juridictional rules/regulations).

I DGAF what training you have had. You try to physically stop a parent from getting to their child, you're asking for pain. Take it to court and roll the dice with the jury.

That said, we're not talking life threatening injuries on the court. But if we are, I'll be by my child's side while they treat him/her. And you did say you'd physically try to prevent that parent from getting onto the court. I'm telling you not to try it, for your own safety. You may have had crowd control training, but you have no idea what training that parent has had.

Chances are, we're talking about leg, arm, or maybe head injuries that are not life threatening. Again, do not get in my way. And if, as a first responder, you do not respond to my directions with regard to treatment, expect to lose your license for treating a minor without parental consent.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That said, we're not talking life threatening injuries on the court. But if we are, I'll be by my child's side while they treat him/her.

So I'll ask you the same question that I just asked BktBallRef, do you expect to be able to do that in a hospital trauma ward too?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Sorry, but your statement has no basis in fact from a legal standpoint. You clearly have no concept of the legal and ethical principles of informed consent regarding medical diagnosis and treatment and who can legally make related decisions. Except in extreme life threatening circumstances, medical personnel may not treat without consent.Those "signed permissions" some want to place so much stock in are only valid if the parent/guardian are not physically present to make the decisions in person.

Oh, and in response to the question you asked Smitty, I do have a law enforcement background with extensive training in security and crowd control - news flash....a parent attempting to go to the side of an apparently significantly injured child does not pose a threat from either standpoint. Preventing them from exercising their legal rights could, however, be a significant liability issue....and likely a criminal one as well.

It would all depend on the jurisdictional rules/regualtions. It would also depend on the training that the crowd control/security personnel have as to what the charges can be. If the crowd control is licensed, more liability can be brought against them depending on their actions. However in most circumstances, for school sporting events the crowd control is normally school staff that are not licensed as crowd control/secuirty, or volunteers that may or may not have any training or be licensed.

In all situations it's always think about the situation as it's happening & what should & should not be done. Not always will a parent be a bother to medical personnel. Nowhere did I say completely ban them from giving input, this can still be done by not being directly involved.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I must ask if you going to insist upon remaining by your child's side in the operating room too, and during the transport? If not, are you being consistent in your stance? I guess that I don't see why do you believe that you must stand right there and hover over the medical personnel on the basketball court, but not in the trauma ward at the local hospital?
Would you tell the doctors at the hospital that they cannot treat your child without you physically present in the room? I think that you are failing to see the big picture. For some reason you, like many others, are fixated on the emergency situation happening on a basketball court and somehow feel compelled to be right next to the scene. Got news for you, if your kid is injured in a car wreck and taken to the hospital via ambulance from the scene, you may not see your child until after the surgeon is finished. The most that you might get is a doctor/hospital administrator coming out into the hallway to fill you in on the situation and ask you to sign a treatment permission form. You actually getting to go back and see your kid is unlikely, if the situation is unstable.

And you think all this is related to whether or not you called a T?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So I'll ask you the same question that I just asked BktBallRef, do you expect to be able to do that in a hospital trauma ward too?

If I can be present, I will be. I will make those decisions. I have that right. Look, I've been around sports long enough to know injuries happen. I'm not going to be rushing down there unless it looks severe.

But, as an official on the court, I'm not going to prevent nor punish a parent for making a different choice than I would make for my child. There may very well be issues with that child's health that any first responders may need to be aware of.

If GM wants to do something about it, they can. If they don't, I'm ok with that.

No way I go into the OR, either, per your question to BktBallref. But I will have made the decisions necessary for that surgery to happen if I was able to do so. If I was not, it won't be because some overzealous "crowd control" kid stopped me.

[Nevadaref]

Sterility? That's your rationalization? Get real. The clothes that the injured individual was wearing when the brought him in aren't sterile. This isn't a planned surgery either. This is a trauma ward. The doors swing wide open and people come and go. So you are off the mark here.

Got further news for you. In the vast majority of emergency cases the parent wouldn't even be able to watch the surgery through the window. Yep, that's right, you wouldn't be able to observe every little thing that those doctors are doing to your little one like you somehow believe that you are entitled to do on the basketball court.

You need to spend some time trying to figure out why you feel that way and why you think that it is correct. You come off like a fanboy who has never read a rules book talking about basketball plays. Neither you nor BktBallRef seem to be familiar with the inner workings of a hospital trauma ward in the slightest.