T Up a Fan?!?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Nowhere did I say completely ban them from giving input, this can still be done by not being directly involved.

Here is the quote I object to:

Originally Posted by chseagle

If I was working crowd control in this situation, I would physically put myself between the parent & the student-athlete so that they could not become one until after removed from the court. One of the primary rules in crowd control is to de-escalate the situation before it gets blown out of proportion. By allowing the parent onto the court, you have just allowed a match to be lit in a potentially explosive situation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

And you think all this is related to whether or not you called a T?

Of course it is. The T is for someone going where they are not permitted or authorized to be. Plain and simple.

What would happen if a parent burst into the OR to be with his/her child during surgery at a hospital? The police/security would likely be called and the person would be removed, and depending upon the conduct and resistance it's possible that criminal charges could be filed. There are rules and regulations which are in place and need to be followed even in the face of injury to loved ones.

People here seem to be saying, "My kid is hurt," equates to "throw all the rules out the window." That's not how our society works in daily life, and it shouldn't be any different on the basketball court.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sterility? That's your rationalization? Get real. The clothes that the injured individual was wearing when the brought him in aren't sterile. This isn't a planned surgery either. This is a trauma ward. The doors swing wide open and people come and go. So you are off the mark here.

Got further news for you. In the vast majority of emergency cases the parent wouldn't even be able to watch the surgery through the window. Yep, that's right, you wouldn't be able to observe every little thing that those doctors are doing to your little one like you somehow believe that you are entitled to do on the basketball court.

You need to spend some time trying to figure out why you feel that way and why you think that it is correct. You come off like a fanboy who has never read a rules book talking about basketball plays. Neither you nor BktBallRef seem to be familiar with the inner workings of a hospital trauma ward in the slightest.

Did somebody delete a post? I don't follow any of this.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sterility? That's your rationalization? Get real. The clothes that the injured individual was wearing when the brought him in aren't sterile. This isn't a planned surgery either. This is a trauma ward. The doors swing wide open and people come and go. So you are off the mark here.

Got further news for you. In the vast majority of emergency cases the parent wouldn't even be able to watch the surgery through the window. Yep, that's right, you wouldn't be able to observe every little thing that those doctors are doing to your little one like you somehow believe that you are entitled to do on the basketball court.

You need to spend some time trying to figure out why you feel that way and why you think that it is correct. You come off like a fanboy who has never read a rules book talking about basketball plays. Neither you nor BktBallRef seem to be familiar with the inner workings of a hospital trauma ward in the slightest.

Look, my point was I realize I don't belong in the OR because I wouldn't know my nut from my eyeball in there. I also realize that parental rights may or may not conflict with basketball rules, so often times a parent will have to choose between insisting on their rights and avoiding punishment in the gym.

There are a few things that I'm saying in this.

1. I have the right as a parent to be down there. Whether that's the right, proper, or "legal" (WRT basketball rules) thing to do is irrelevant.
2. If I decide to do it, don't get in my way.
3. As an official, I'm not going to call a T on a parent here. If they verbally accost me or my partners, I'll have GM remove them. If they tend to their child, I'll leave it up to GM to decide what to do.
4. Just because you can squeeze the situation into a rule for a T doesn't mean you should.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Did somebody delete a post? I don't follow any of this.

Sorry, I deleted mine without thinking. I mentioned that I wouldn't be in the OR because of sterility reasons. It wasn't the only reason, but it may have been the only reason I gave.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Did somebody delete a post? I don't follow any of this.

Yeah, it appears that Snaqwells changed post #104 while I was responding to it. He had originally written that he couldn't be in the OR because he would ruin the sterility of the environment.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Of course it is. The T is for someone going where they are not permitted or authorized to be. Plain and simple.

What would happen if a parent burst into the OR to be with his/her child during surgery at a hospital?

You would issue another T for that?

People here seem to be saying, "My kid is hurt," equates to throw all the rules out the window. That's not how our society works in daily life, and it should be any different on the basketball court.

All the rules? No The rule you are trying to apply to the situation? Yes

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Here is the quote I object to:

In other words, would allow the medical personnel the room needed to perform their duties without direct interference. When I said "be one" I was meaning be side-by-side to their injured child with direct interference to medical personnel. There always are extenuating circumstances, no matter how a person sees things. However, a person of sound mind & judgement would allow the medical personnel the room needed to perform their duties for the treatment of the injured.

A parent running out onto the court to be by the side of their injured child, is not considered at the time to be of sound mind & judgement.

A parent can still be involved in the decisions of a child's medical treatment without being right there directly next to the child.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Look, my point was I realize I don't belong in the OR because I wouldn't know my nut from my eyeball in there. I also realize that parental rights may or may not conflict with basketball rules, so often times a parent will have to choose between insisting on their rights and avoiding punishment in the gym.

There are a few things that I'm saying in this.

1. I have the right as a parent to be down there. Whether that's the right, proper, or "legal" (WRT basketball rules) thing to do is irrelevant.
2. If I decide to do it, don't get in my way.
3. As an official, I'm not going to call a T on a parent here. If they verbally accost me or my partners, I'll have GM remove them. If they tend to their child, I'll leave it up to GM to decide what to do.
4. Just because you can squeeze the situation into a rule for a T doesn't mean you should.

Our stances on this are more similar than they are different.
We both realize that parents don't belong in certain places and that applies to hospitals as well as basketball courts.
Neither of us as an official is going to get into a parents way if they decide to charge out onto the court to reach an injured child.
Where we differ is in what we are going to do afterward.
I'm going to have GM remove the individual for sure, and most likely will assess a team technical foul. I'm not leaving the decision of what to do up to GM. It is the official's space which has been violated here.
If the spectator decides to accost any of the officials while being out on the court, I am certainly assessing a technical foul and might even forfeit the game, depending upon what the official was subjected to. For example, if physical contact occurred, then I would deem that the school administration has failed to provide a safe environment for the officials to conduct the athletic activity, and terminate the contest.

I feel that we as officials allow too much garbage from spectators and parents. I've grown sick of it and far less tolerant over the years. I'm tired of seeing the level of sportsmanship decline and believe that it is high time that we take action and do something about it. You will likely note this sentiment throughout many of my responses in various threads. Why people in our society believe that an athletic contest is an open invitation to be abusive to others is beyond my comprehension, but it is unquestionable that many think that way and act that way.

One wouldn't hear an adult yelling nasty things at a 16 year-old girl in the supermarket, but because she happens to be wearing a uniform with the name of the opposing school on the front of it she is somehow worse than a communist dictator and can be subjected to all sorts of indignities.

I guess that I have just become jaded in my old age, but I'm tired of it.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Again, no one is attempting to prevent the parent from participating in their proper role as the legal decision maker for the injured child.

Maybe it was chseagle's statement "If I was working crowd control in this situation, I would physically put myself between the parent & the student-athlete so that they could not become one until after removed from the court."
or yours "I won't but security might."

Why are you equating a prohibition to run onto the court without proper authorization and/or escort with blocking the parent from making a legitimate medical decision? The two are totally unrelated.

Actually they are very much related. Preventing a parent immediate access to the child in order to gain the information they may need in order to make decisions, in and of itself violates that right.

The bottom line is that basketball rules are just that - they have no legal standing. By contrast, the rights I've referred to are derived from portions of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th and 14th amendments to the constitution and numerous case law decisions dating back to the early 1900's.

The game is already interrupted for the injury. A parent entering solely to evaluate the nature and extent of an injury to their child is not disrupting anything, and in reality may help the situation resolve more quickly. T away if you want - by rule you can.....just be prepared to be crucified in the court of public opinion.

Anyway, I'm done here...this one's been flogged enough!

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I feel that we as officials allow too much garbage from spectators and parents. I've grown sick of it and far less tolerant over the years. I'm tired of seeing the level of sportsmanship decline and believe that it is high time that we take action and do something about it. You will likely note this sentiment throughout many of my responses in various threads. Why people in our society believe that an athletic contest is an open invitation to be abusive to others is beyond my comprehension, but it is unquestionable that many think that way and act that way.

So what does that part have to do with a parent coming down to check on their kid, and says NOTHING to the officials?

I was watching a game recently and a player from the Visitors rolled an ankle after trying for a rebound. When the officials stopped play, the trainer and coach were beckoned on the court. The player's father walked out of the stands and along the endline to check on her. It was a fairly severe sprain as he and a police officer helped her to the locker room. The parent didn't say anything to the officials and didn't even look at them.

So with your logic Nevada, you would have the parent removed from the gym, and assess a team technical for that? You may do things drastically different in your neck of the woods, but I'm 99 percent sure that if a T was given in the above situation locally, the officials involved would be in serious dog doo-doo with the association.

If a parent comes out of the stands to check on their kid and says anything to the officials, the situation changes completely.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Of course it is. The T is for someone going where they are not permitted or authorized to be. Plain and simple.

Rules reference?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Is what I have in bold sound about right for the rule in question?

If I remember right, under rule 2-8-1, there's a note that states:
"The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behavior, insofar as it can reasonably be expected to control the spectators. The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game. Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized. When team supporters become unruly or interfere with the orderly progress of the game, the officials shall stop the game until the host management resolves the situation and the game can proceed in an orderly manner. In the absence of
a designated school representative, the home coach shall serve as the host management."

Originally Posted by sseltser

Rules reference?

The T or not to T reference is Rule 2-8-1. As the parent coming onto the floor without being summoned is considered unporting behavior by a spectator, altugh extuating circumstances are the cause.

Basically kind of a cause & effect, with the cause being a child getting injured & the effect being the parental instinct to check on their child by going out onto the court.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by chseagle

The T or not to T reference is Rule 2-8-1. As the parent coming onto the floor without being summoned is considered unporting behavior by a spectator, altugh extuating circumstances are the cause.

Basically kind of a cause & effect, with the cause being a child getting injured & the effect being the parental instinct to check on their child by going out onto the court.

That is absolute BS. Seriously - stick to running the clock. You have no concept of the intent or understanding of the rules from an official's perspective. In many ways, you are more wrong than 'representing' to be giving any advice here in this forum.

Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized. When team supporters become unruly or interfere with the orderly progress of the game, the officials shall stop the game until the host management resolves the situation and the game can proceed in an orderly manner.

In the case of an injured player, the game is already stopped. There is no orderly progress of the game at that point. Penalizing the team with a T is the absolute wrong thing to do if the parent is only attending to their injured child. What problem does this solve? How does this, in any possible way, make the game better?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Smitty

That is absolute BS. Seriously - stick to running the clock. You have no concept of the intent or understanding of the rules from an official's perspective. In many ways, you are more wrong than 'representing' to be giving any advice here in this forum.

Smitty, I've been told on more than 1 occasion from the floor officials that the table can intervene if they feel a rule is not being followed to the extent that the rule is something that the table has knowledge of.

Generally the rules in question are dealing with uniform presentation or the management of the books.

In the case of an injured player, the game is already stopped. There is no orderly progress of the game at that point. Penalizing the team with a T is the absolute wrong thing to do if the parent is only attending to their injured child. What problem does this solve? How does this, in any possible way, make the game better?

As I stated beforehand, the parent going out onto the floor is a cause & effect.

True, the game has been stopped, but how often in situations of a student-athlete being injured, is a parent actually summoned to come down for assistance?

How wluld the NCAA or NBA/WNBA handle the situation if a player was injured & the player's parent(s) came rushing to their side in the middle of the court?

Same thing can be asked of NFL, MLB, NASCAR, MLS, NHL, IFL, AF1, WWE, TNA, & other sports officials, no matter what the sport is.

For example: what would happen if David Stockton (son of John Stockton) got injured when Gonzaga was playing against the University of Portland, & John (his father) came rushing down onto the court to be by his son's side although he wasn't summoned/given permission?