Questioning my T

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by fiasco

He told me, "No, I can do that because I'm frustrated with my girls, not at your foul calls."

If this was the only item, you could address it by saying something like, "I understand, but you still need to express it appropriately."

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Girls JV game last night. Visiting team only has 7 players, and they are obviously overmatched from the get-go.

It's also pretty obvious that the V coach is wanting to rely on us to keep the game close. He is chirpy all game, and my partner and I give him each a warning in the first half.

One warning is all he gets. If you give him a warning and then don't whack him the next time he overreacts, its on you. You have forfeited your authority and credibility.

Originally Posted by fiasco

With under 30 seconds in the first half, I call a foul and as I'm reporting to the table, he is sitting down and kicks the bleacher with the back of his foot as hard as he can. I probably should have dinged him right then as we had already both warned him, but I didn't. I told him, "Coach, that's your final warning." He told me, "No, I can do that because I'm frustrated with my girls, not at your foul calls."

WHACK!!!! Sorry. If you don't whack that, it doesn't matter what he intended, the perception to the other coaches/players and fans is you are getting shown up.

Originally Posted by fiasco

Yeah, right, but I didn't say anything. I was suffering from a misplaced sense of sympathy for his girls, who didn't even have an assistant coach to rely on if this clown got tossed. Shouldn't have been thinking that way, but I was nonetheless.

Third quarter, his girls are actually starting to make a comeback. This is girls JV basketball, so we're not calling every single handcheck, but we've called a few. One on particular play, the defender rides one of this coach's girls from the top of the three point line to the baseline with her forearm in her side. It was not in my area, and my partner chose to pass on it. As she reached the baseline, she traveled, and my partner got it. (she traveled because of her momentum, not the handcheck, BTW).

Coach is visibly upset and calls a timeout just to give it to us. His voice is definitely raised, but he's not saying anything out of line. He tells us that he knows there is handchecking going on out there, and we're choosing to ignore it. He's partially right, and I really do take his comments to heart as he's talking to us.

But, as he walks away, he yells loud enough for at least the first 6 or 7 rows to hear "SO DO YOUR JOB!!!"

I whacked him.

What do you think?

This one was avoidable. had you whacked him earlier, this one would've probably never happened.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

This one was avoidable. had you whacked him earlier, this one would've probably never happened.

Thanks, but I think I have all but acknowledged this. My question is, given the circumstances, was the T warranted or since I gave him the leash should I just have let him run with it?

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Thanks, but I think I have all but acknowledged this. My question is, given the circumstances, was the T warranted or since I gave him the leash should I just have let him run with it?

As Guido always says, "Its better to pay late than not pay at all."

[biggravy]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Thanks, but I think I have all but acknowledged this. My question is, given the circumstances, was the T warranted or since I gave him the leash should I just have let him run with it?

I think this is a very good question. Personally, I find the T that I seem to question myself about later is the one I give late in the game after I have taken crap for three quarters. I have now realized this and I tend to be less worried about handing one out if it is earned. A few years ago, I would tend to take too much crap and then whamo. I feel like I either get them when they first deserve it, or else I have sent a message that their behavior is within acceptable limits then suddenly I change my mind. Does that make sense?

I know there are times when a coach will push it but then suddenly get out of line. Stick them, fine. I guess what I am saying is there shouldn't be a cumulative effect. Either they are unsporting or they are not. Pretty much, if you are questioning yourself whether you should have stuck them or not, especially if you are still wondering well after the game... then yes you should have stuck them. Kicking the bench = tweet! But in all honesty, I probably would have gotten this coach earlier than that.

[Adam]

Even if you'd let it go throughout the game, his final comment earned a T, all by itself. It was personal, and he's showing you up. You'll notice calling the T settled him down. My guess is he was going to continue to push it until you broke. The trick is to settle them down before you break. Call the T before he gets under your skin if you recognize he's not going to stop.

[Forksref]

I NEVER use the word "warning" in addressing coaches. I may use the stop sign and say, "That's enough coach." I think saying, "This is your final warning," is baiting the coach.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Forksref

I NEVER use the word "warning" in addressing coaches. I may use the stop sign and say, "That's enough coach." I think saying, "This is your final warning," is baiting the coach.

To me, you're backing yourself into a corner with it; if the coach says something else, you're pretty much obligated to ring him up.

Of course, some would say the same thing about the stop sign.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

To me, you're backing yourself into a corner with it; if the coach says something else, you're pretty much obligated to ring him up.

Of course, some would say the same thing about the stop sign.

Usually, if I give the stop sign, I've already given him/her a reprieve. Anything further after stop sign is a T.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Girls JV game last night. Visiting team only has 7 players, and they are obviously overmatched from the get-go.

It's also pretty obvious that the V coach is wanting to rely on us to keep the game close. He is chirpy all game, and my partner and I give him each a warning in the first half.

With under 30 seconds in the first half, I call a foul and as I'm reporting to the table, he is sitting down and kicks the bleacher with the back of his foot as hard as he can. I probably should have dinged him right then as we had already both warned him, but I didn't. I told him, "Coach, that's your final warning." He told me, "No, I can do that because I'm frustrated with my girls, not at your foul calls."

Yeah, right, but I didn't say anything. I was suffering from a misplaced sense of sympathy for his girls, who didn't even have an assistant coach to rely on if this clown got tossed. Shouldn't have been thinking that way, but I was nonetheless.

Third quarter, his girls are actually starting to make a comeback. This is girls JV basketball, so we're not calling every single handcheck, but we've called a few. One on particular play, the defender rides one of this coach's girls from the top of the three point line to the baseline with her forearm in her side. It was not in my area, and my partner chose to pass on it. As she reached the baseline, she traveled, and my partner got it. (she traveled because of her momentum, not the handcheck, BTW).

Coach is visibly upset and calls a timeout just to give it to us. His voice is definitely raised, but he's not saying anything out of line. He tells us that he knows there is handchecking going on out there, and we're choosing to ignore it. He's partially right, and I really do take his comments to heart as he's talking to us.

But, as he walks away, he yells loud enough for at least the first 6 or 7 rows to hear "SO DO YOUR JOB!!!"

I whacked him.

What do you think?

Don't use the "That's your final/last warning" thing. It backs you into a corner. Kind of like in baseball where it's discouraged to use the "Not another word, coach" line.

Just warn him once and whack him.

FWIW, if there is a hand check, call it. You may be there 5 minutes longer but at least it will keep people off your back because you're blowing your whistle.

[JPaco54]

Originally Posted by fiasco

. This is girls JV basketball, so we're not calling every single handcheck, but we've called a few.

Not calling the handchecks in JV girls, or not calling all of them, would amount to too many fouls and or slow the game down? This is a tough balance when you want to keep the flow of the game going and you want to be fair to both teams. Last weekend my MS G game was very physical and lots of handchecks and grabbing. So we decided to start calling them and help the girls play regular basketball not rugby. It is a tough call at times but I have learned from this forum to be aware of it as well as from experience.

As far as the T - I agree with the other folks that it may have gone too long. But a T should have been called.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by fiasco

With under 30 seconds in the first half, I call a foul and as I'm reporting to the table, he is sitting down and kicks the bleacher with the back of his foot as hard as he can.

Technical foul for unsporting conduct: 10-3-6a prohibits "Disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official or gesturing in such a manner as to indicate resentment" (emphasis added).

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by fiasco

...

Third quarter, his girls are actually starting to make a comeback. This is girls JV basketball, so we're not calling every single handcheck, but we've called a few. One on particular play, the defender rides one of this coach's girls from the top of the three point line to the baseline with her forearm in her side. It was not in my area, and my partner chose to pass on it. As she reached the baseline, she traveled, and my partner got it. (she traveled because of her momentum, not the handcheck, BTW).

Well, get ready to attack me, I guess...

I know how you all hate us coaches sometimes, and we often deserve it. I'm not condoning the coach's reaction in this situation, but please try to understand where it came from and to own some of your own mismanagement that contributed to the situation you describe. By your own description, you're picking and choosing to set aside certain rules and calls for whatever reasons you have. Then, from this coach's perspective, you choose to enforce another rule that hurts his team. That is tremendously frustrating. As a coach who regularly works with very underpowered teams, I am painfully aware how a choice not to call handchecks ("because it's a JV game") gives a distinct advantage to the team that was more powerful in the first place.

If it's a handcheck - on my kid or on theirs - please call it. I often feel that my choice to teach legal "keep-your-hands-off-and-move-your-feet" defense puts my kids at a disadvantage in games where officials decide that a hand (or armbar) on the hip is going to be OK that day.

Not to mention, I've had at least one situation where this was happening, and I earned a tech for chirping about it. Nevertheless, after the tech, the officials started getting the opponents' hands off. I hate having to "take one" just to get the game called by the rules, but I have to admit, getting that tech improved the game for my players.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JoeT

Well, get ready to attack me, I guess...

I know how you all hate us coaches sometimes, and we often deserve it. I'm not condoning the coach's reaction in this situation, but please try to understand where it came from and to own some of your own mismanagement that contributed to the situation you describe. By your own description, you're picking and choosing to set aside certain rules and calls for whatever reasons you have. Then, from this coach's perspective, you choose to enforce another rule that hurts his team. That is tremendously frustrating. As a coach who regularly works with very underpowered teams, I am painfully aware how a choice not to call handchecks ("because it's a JV game") gives a distinct advantage to the team that was more powerful in the first place.

If it's a handcheck - on my kid or on theirs - please call it. I often feel that my choice to teach legal "keep-your-hands-off-and-move-your-feet" defense puts my kids at a disadvantage in games where officials decide that a hand (or armbar) on the hip is going to be OK that day.

Not to mention, I've had at least one situation where this was happening, and I earned a tech for chirping about it. Nevertheless, after the tech, the officials started getting the opponents' hands off. I hate having to "take one" just to get the game called by the rules, but I have to admit, getting that tech improved the game for my players.

Believe me when I say if I had called every single handcheck in that game, pretty much every girl would have fouled out. Would that have been good "management"? Then the coach would have been upset with me for "not letting them play."

Can't win for losing with you guys...

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Believe me when I say if I had called every single handcheck in that game, pretty much every girl would have fouled out.

...or they would have laid off the handchecks and played better "real" defense. Coaches and players adapt to the officiating either way. If you give players the opportunity to gain an illegal advantage and not got called, most of them (in particular the better ones) will take the advantage you give them.

Originally Posted by fiasco

Can't win for losing with you guys...

That may be.... You definitely can't when you start deciding which rules to enforce. I will say in my case, that I don't recall ever asking an official to "let them play" and overlook illegal contact. That's just in my case; I've heard others do it. Now I have heard coaches say, "if he (she) keeps that hand on your hip, run him (her) over to make sure they make a call - one way or the other." That's the risk you run managing it by letting it go.

Unfortunately, SO much of it is allowed in some games that we have to specifically run "bad defense" drills to teach ballhandlers to maintain composure with significant illegal contact. We tell the players on defense that this is specifically NOT how to play defense in the game, but to handcheck and armbar the ballhandler the length of the floor.