debate between me and another

[representing]

So I'm ref'ing a JV basketball game today and my partner, before the game, tells me about a game he did last night.

A and B in a JV game. Girls game. B was pressing A, and the ball was taking out on the baseline. My buddy tells me he's the lead on table side, and is at the half court during the pressing. A1 throws the ball into A2 and has control of ball. At this time, my buddy tells me he has heard a coach yell "time out" and blows his whistle to award the time out. But, when he turns around, he realized it was B's head coach calling the time out and not A, while A had the ball inbound. What do you have?

I was debating about this with another referee at the bar tonight, and he said that it is an inadvertent (spelling) whistle and that you go to the arrow. I disagree because A had control of the ball, thus should still possess the ball in their control. But, do you then give B their time-out because the clock is dead and the ball shall be taken out of bounds? I'm confused, and I didn't get a chance to look it up in the rule book under NFHS rules.

[Raymond]

You would still grant the time-out and the subsequent throw-in spot would be nearest where A2 possessed the ball.

[representing]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You would still grant the time-out and the subsequent throw-in spot would be nearest where A2 possessed the ball.

Ok, but who gets the ball... A or do you go to arrow?

[tjones1]

Time-out B. Check out 5.8.3 Situation E

It is still A's ball.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by representing

Ok, but who gets the ball... A or do you go to arrow?

A gets the ball. No arrow.

[representing]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Time-out B. Check out 5.8.3 Situation E

It is still A's ball.

Thank you Tjones. I was more correct in this debate than he was. I said that since A had control, you give it back to them, but I wasn't sure if you could still grant them the time out. He said you go to the arrow and then grant the time out.

thanks again!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by representing

Thank you Tjones. I was more correct in this debate than he was. I said that since A had control, you give it back to them, but I wasn't sure if you could still grant them the time out. He said you go to the arrow and then grant the time out.

thanks again!

Looks to me like you were both 50% right.

[mutantducky]

and 50% wrong . no brownie points. only star stickers which kick arse anyways

[representing]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

and 50% wrong . no brownie points. only star stickers which kick arse anyways

Ok... but how would you explain why you would need to go to the arrow? I would have much rather tell the coach "You can't call time out, A had the ball in bound" and then take the ball out of bounds for a throw-in, instead of saying "oh, it goes to the arrow now" and not be able to explain that. I would have been wrong to say that the coach cannot have a time-out since the ball was in play and shall be placed back into play asap unless A wants a time-out (as would have been allowed had the ball still be in play), but would have been right to give the ball back to A. I think I get more "brownie points" for that than my buddy would if he were to go to the arrow. These are the kind of situations you can get into trouble with, especially in a close game with just minutes left.

I actually just remembered a few minutes ago that i had this very same situation my first season as a basketball official. The one very small detail that makes it slightly different is that I heard B's head coach call time out before the ball was placed in bounds by A, and I was a little slow to blowing the whistle and granting the time out. A got the ball in just as I was blowing the whistle. Then, I didn't know how to explain the situation to A's head coach but I got it right anyways. Granted B the time out, and gave A the ball out-of-bounds after the play. I just can't remember if I gave A the baseline to run or not, as it was an in-bound play at the baseline after a made basket in a very close game.

[Back In The Saddle]

You bring up a good point. There have been a whole slew of postings here lately where perfectly reasonable officials, for no explainable reason, want to solve whatever quandary they have gotten themselves into...by going to the arrow.

If I were king of basketball, I think I'd take the arrow away until these folks learned how to properly solve the 99% of situations that resume using POI or some means other than the arrow. Then maybe, and only maybe, I'd give it back.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by representing

Ok... but how would you explain why you would need to go to the arrow? I would have much rather tell the coach "You can't call time out, A had the ball in bound" and then take the ball out of bounds for a throw-in, instead of saying "oh, it goes to the arrow now" and not be able to explain that. I would have been wrong to say that the coach cannot have a time-out since the ball was in play and shall be placed back into play asap unless A wants a time-out (as would have been allowed had the ball still be in play), but would have been right to give the ball back to A. I think I get more "brownie points" for that than my buddy would if he were to go to the arrow. These are the kind of situations you can get into trouble with, especially in a close game with just minutes left.

You can't, because there is no conceivable way that you would use the AP arrow in this situation. Ideally, you should ignore a timeout request from B's coach since he couldn't request one at the time. I really hope your buddy that you were arguing with isn't doing any games above the junior high level. If we used the AP arrow in this situation, what is to keep B's coach from requesting timeouts all the time when his team has the arrow, hoping he can get one of the officials to grant it?

I actually just remembered a few minutes ago that i had this very same situation my first season as a basketball official. The one very small detail that makes it slightly different is that I heard B's head coach call time out before the ball was placed in bounds by A, and I was a little slow to blowing the whistle and granting the time out. A got the ball in just as I was blowing the whistle. Then, I didn't know how to explain the situation to A's head coach but I got it right anyways. Granted B the time out, and gave A the ball out-of-bounds after the play. I just can't remember if I gave A the baseline to run or not, as it was an in-bound play at the baseline after a made basket in a very close game.

So the ball was at A's disposal for a throw-in and you granted B's coach a timeout? Or did B score and before it was at A's disposal, B's coach requested a timeout? You might want to clean up your posts and be more clear about what was happening so it is easier to give you a straight answer.

[representing]

Originally Posted by zm1283

You can't, because there is no conceivable way that you would use the AP arrow in this situation. Ideally, you should ignore a timeout request from B's coach since he couldn't request one at the time. I really hope your buddy that you were arguing with isn't doing any games above the junior high level. If we used the AP arrow in this situation, what is to keep B's coach from requesting timeouts all the time when his team has the arrow, hoping he can get one of the officials to grant it?

That's exactly my point. You CAN'T explain that. I asked him that question and he gave me some bull**** and said that if he didn't know how to explain it, he would just tell the coach "hey, it's in the rulebook, and I don't make the rules". And yet, he's doing district championship games and local small DIII college games.

Originally Posted by zm1283

So the ball was at A's disposal for a throw-in and you granted B's coach a timeout? Or did B score and before it was at A's disposal, B's coach requested a timeout? You might want to clean up your posts and be more clear about what was happening so it is easier to give you a straight answer.

Sorry. B shot the ball and made it. A had the ball to pass it in. If I remember correctly, B was pressing A so A could not get the ball into play right away. B's Head Coach calls a time out while A still had the ball out of bounds for the throw-in. I acknowledged it, but had a slight delay with my whistle. When I finally blew the whistle to grant B a time out, the ball was on it's way in-bounds.

Does that make better sense?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Time-out B. Check out 5.8.3 Situation E

It is still A's ball.

Originally Posted by representing

That's exactly my point. You CAN'T explain that. I asked him that question and he gave me some bull**** and said that if he didn't know how to explain it, he would just tell the coach "hey, it's in the rulebook, and I don't make the rules". And yet, he's doing district championship games and local small DIII college games.

Stop arguing about this play. It is very simple. You read what it says in the Case Book and do that. There's nothing to discuss.

5.8.3 SITUATION E: A1 is dribbling the ball in his/her backcourt when: (a) the
Team B head coach requests and is erroneously granted a time-out by an official;
or (b) the Team A head coach is yelling “side out” offensive instructions to his/her
team and the official stops play believing the coach requested a time-out. RULING:
In (a), Team B is entitled to use the time-out since it was requested and
granted; once granted it cannot be revoked and is charged to Team B. All privileges
and rights permitted during a charged time-out are available to both teams.
Play will resume with a Team A throw-in nearest to where play was stopped. In
(b), an accidental whistle has occurred. Team A was not requesting a time-out,
and therefore, should not be granted or charged with one. Play is resumed at the
point of interruption. (4-36-1; 4-36-2a)

[representing]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Stop arguing about this play. It is very simple. You read what it says in the Case Book and do that. There's nothing to discuss.

5.8.3 SITUATION E: A1 is dribbling the ball in his/her backcourt when: (a) the
Team B head coach requests and is erroneously granted a time-out by an official;
or (b) the Team A head coach is yelling “side out” offensive instructions to his/her
team and the official stops play believing the coach requested a time-out. RULING:
In (a), Team B is entitled to use the time-out since it was requested and
granted; once granted it cannot be revoked and is charged to Team B. All privileges
and rights permitted during a charged time-out are available to both teams.
Play will resume with a Team A throw-in nearest to where play was stopped. In
(b), an accidental whistle has occurred. Team A was not requesting a time-out,
and therefore, should not be granted or charged with one. Play is resumed at the
point of interruption. (4-36-1; 4-36-2a)

There was no arguing between me and the other forum members, I got it clear now.

Does anyone actually read all of the case book though? Some of these situations are almost never to happen.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by representing

There was no arguing between me and the other forum members, I got it clear now.

Does anyone actually read all of the case book though? Some of these situations are almost never to happen.

Those of us who have been around for several years have spent many hours reading through that book. Some of us have even authored a few of the play situations. So, yes, we are aware of everything which is in it and have read the whole thing.