Six Players Participating ???

[BillyMac]

IAABO 2009-10 Refresher Exam
#50. Substitute B-6 enters the court while the ball is in control of Team A and while the ball is live and the clock is running. The officials are unaware that Team B has six players in the game. B-6 returns to the bench after which Team A commits a violation. The scorer now informs the officials that Team B had six players on the court. The referee rules that no technical foul can be charged. Is the referee correct? IAABO Answer: No (10-2-2 and 2-11-3)

The rulebook says that this infraction is penalized if discovered while being violated: 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. PENALTY: (Art. 6) Penalized if discovered while being violated.

Here's a pertinent casebook play:
10.1.6 SITUATION (Under the Heading "Six In Game"): With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Here's an additional casebook play, however, it's under the heading "Not Being Beckoned":
10.2.2 SITUATION (Under the heading "Not Being Beckoned"): During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

Two questions:
1) According to the rule, as written, the infraction is penalized if discovered while being violated, so in the Refresher Exam question, isn't it too late to penalize since B-6 is no longer participating when the scorer informs the officials? He's on the bench, during a dead ball for a violation.
2) Does the communication from the scorer count as being "discovered" by the officials? The officials were unaware that there was a sixth player, so they never really "discovered" the sixth player.

I always believed, possibly in error, that in order to call this sixth-man infraction the officials themselves must observe, or "discover", the sixth payer participating, not simply be told by another party, and that this infraction must be enforced while the sixth player is participating, that is, when he's no longer participating, it's to late too penalize.

Comments ???

[rsl]

According to 3.3, the sixth man becomes a player when the ball becomes live. Also according to 3.3, he does not become bench personnel until he has a sub or we notify the coach he has been disqualified.

Can we infer that even though the sixth man left the floor, he is not bench personnel until the next live ball? If so, the question & answer match. Certainly if one of the five legal players sat on the bench, that would not automatically make them bench personnel if they left during a live ball.

3.3 . . . A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court.
If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live. A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

(10-2-2 and 2-11-3)

According to this, the technical would be not for 6 participating but for the player entering the court without being beckoned. I also had thought that this had to be witnessed by an official, but upon further review, if the infraction need only be discovered before the ball becomes live following the next dead ball, this would indicate that it is acceptable for the information to come from elsewhere. I had a play like this which we discussed here.

What's the call?

This new information leads me to think we could have/should have called two technicals in my play.

[mbyron]

I think the IAABO exam has the wrong answer. You've cited the correct rule, 10-1-6, and if the officials (not including the scorekeeper, as this is not a scorekeeper responsibility) do not discover it while the infraction is occurring, then it's too late.

10.2.2 does not extend to this case because in 10.2.2 the substitute is still on the court and the officials observe him or her. This infraction can be penalized under "penalize when observed" because it's capable of being observed.

What's different in 10.1.6 is that there's nothing for the officials to see -- the player has returned to the bench -- and we don't take testimony about fouls or violations.

[BillyMac]

IAABO 2009-10 Refresher Exam
#50. Substitute B-6 enters the court while the ball is in control of Team A and while the ball is live and the clock is running. The officials are unaware that Team B has six players in the game. B-6 returns to the bench after which Team A commits a violation. The scorer now informs the officials that Team B had six players on the court. The referee rules that no technical foul can be charged. Is the referee correct? IAABO Answer: No (10-2-2 and 2-11-3)

Thanks for your input guys. Here's what I got from my interpreter, and it's a pretty good explanation.

A technical foul could have been assessed for a "not reporting" infraction, which has a "time limit" of "before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball", rather than a "sixth player" infraction, which has a shorter "time limit" of "if discovered while being violated". 2-1-2 says that "the game officials... shall be assisted by an official timer and scorer", and 2-11-2 says "the scorer shall... notify the nearer official when there is an infraction of the rules pertaining to submission of the roster, substitutions or numbers of players".

10.2.2 SITUATION (Under the heading "Not Being Beckoned"): During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

Now I know why I got the question wrong. A classic misdirection question, misleading me toward a "sixth man" infraction, instead of a "not reporting" infraction. Very tricky, but thought provoking.

Comments from the Forum ???

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

According to this, the technical would be not for 6 participating but for the player entering the court without being beckoned.

Winner and still champion, just another ref.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10.2.2 SITUATION (Under the heading "Not Being Beckoned"): During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

Just for fun, let's twist this around a little bit. Let's add to the casebook situation that substitute A is a sixth player participating for Team A, which is recognized by an official who sees substitute A enter the court without reporting, or being beckoned, and who also sees substitute A participating as a sixth player are on the court during a live ball, while the clock is running. Let's also pretend that this situation is not listed under the heading "Not Being Beckoned", in fact, let's pretend that there is no casebook citation number (10.2.2). Would we call a team technical foul for a "sixth player" infraction, or a substitute technical foul for a "not being beckoned" infraction? Or both? Which technical foul we call is important, because the "not being beckoned" infraction is a foul that counts toward the players total (and team total), which could lead toward a disqualification, while the "sixth player" infraction is a team technical that would only count toward the team foul total toward the bonus, or double bonus.

This is similar to just another ref's link (above), but I think the situation is a little simpler and straight forward.

Which technical foul, or both? Citations please.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just for fun, let's twist this around a little bit. Let's add to the casebook situation that substitute A is a sixth player participating for Team A, which is recognized by an official who sees substitute A enter the court without reporting, or being beckoned, and who also sees substitute A participating as a sixth player are on the court during a live ball, while the clock is running. Let's also pretend that this situation is not listed under the heading "Not Being Beckoned", in fact, let's pretend that there is no casebook citation number (10.2.2). Would we call a team technical foul for a "sixth player" infraction, or a substitute technical foul for a "not being beckoned" infraction? Or both? Which technical foul we call is important, because the "not being beckoned" infraction is a foul that counts toward the players total (and team total), which could lead toward a disqualification, while the "sixth player" infraction is a team technical that would only count toward the team foul total toward the bonus, or double bonus.

This is similar to just another ref's link (above), but I think the situation is a little simpler and straight forward.

Which technical foul, or both? Citations please.

The 6 player infraction is for when you only see 6 on the court and can't know who shouldn't be there. There is no way to tell who should have left when subs were made. In fact, you may have very well beckoned them but didn't see that someone stayed. Or it may have been after a timeout and the wrong number of players returned (and we don't normally beckon for that when they reported before the warning horn).

If you see the 6th player enter the court, it is the substitute infraction.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you see the 6th player enter the court, it is the substitute infraction.

Camron Rust: Sounds good. Just to confirm, you believe that it is only a substitute infraction? I do.

[Back In The Saddle]

Oh good heavens! Where has this appalling bloodlust for piling on multiple T's lately come from? It needs to crawl back into whatever dank hole it emerged from.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rsl

According to 3.3, the sixth man becomes a player when the ball becomes live. Also according to 3.3, he does not become bench personnel until he has a sub or we notify the coach he has been disqualified.

Can we infer that even though the sixth man left the floor, he is not bench personnel until the next live ball? If so, the question & answer match. Certainly if one of the five legal players sat on the bench, that would not automatically make them bench personnel if they left during a live ball.

3.3 . . . A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court.
If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live. A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.

Sorry, but that is not correct. According to the rules there can only be a maximum of FIVE players from each team at any time. This is because the definition of "player" contains the words "legally on the court" and six team members from one team can never all legally be on the court during playing action. So all of the above rules which you cited about becoming a legal player once the ball becomes live do not apply. Those rules are for when an incorrect substitution occurs or the referees fail to direct a player to leave the game.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sorry, but that is not correct. According to the rules there can only be a maximum of FIVE players from each team at any time. This is because the definition of "player" contains the words "legally on the court" and six team members from one team can never all legally be on the court during playing action. So all of the above rules which you cited about becoming a legal player once the ball becomes live do not apply. Those rules are for when an incorrect substitution occurs or the referees fail to direct a player to leave the game.

If they did apply, the team would have to play with six until one of them fouled out (since you certainly aren't going to accept a substitute for the sixth player).
________
THE EXTREME Q VAPORIZER

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Camron Rust: Sounds good. Just to confirm, you believe that it is only a substitute infraction? I do.

No, it is also traveling.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No, it is also traveling.

It used to be traveling, then it was an illegal dribble, now it's just illegal.