What's the call?

[just another ref]

Tonight I filled in at the local private school for a couple of freshman games and had the following: Boys game, 4th quarter, I call a foul on white #30, which is his 4th. Nobody told me, and he wasn't a star, but I just knew it was his 4th. I was thinking to myself, "Boy, I hope his 5th is not a cheap one or I'll never get to call college ball because I have the wrong mentality." But I digress, 'cause that is not even what this thread is about. Horn sounds, and there is a sub at the table, but when the sub is beckoned in, #21 leaves, not # 30. I thought that was strange and that 5th cheap foul thing surfaced in my mind again. As I hand the ball to blue to resume play, I hear the white coach, "No, wait, timeout," but it was too late. Blue turned the ball over, white started a break, and before they got a shot off, turned it back over. Then, I became aware of a buzz in the crowd, people pointing and shouting, etc. I looked to see 6 white shirts on the floor, including #21. I did not actually see #21 reenter the court, but I was positive that he had, because of the 4th foul, cheap 5th foul, and trying to have a college mentality thing. My question: Do you have a T on bench personnel white #21 for entering the court without permission, a team T on white for having more than 5 participating, or both?

[swkansasref33]

I would say unless you our your partner SAW him leave the court, and have definite knowledge, it is an official's mistake. I dont know how much experience you have, and if you are experienced, you know the rule about counting players, and checking with your partner. If you do not have DEFINITE knowledge of the player leaving the court, then I would stop play, correct the sitch, and resume play POI.

[truerookie]

Or, if you do have definite knowledge of the player leaving the court and reenter illegally. It would be a team technical. 10-1-6

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by swkansasref33

I would say unless you our your partner SAW him leave the court, and have definite knowledge, it is an official's mistake. I dont know how much experience you have, and if you are experienced, you know the rule about counting players, and checking with your partner. If you do not have DEFINITE knowledge of the player leaving the court, then I would stop play, correct the sitch, and resume play POI.

Read the first post again. I DEFINITELY SAW HIM LEAVE THE COURT. What I did not see was his actual return, but I am positive it happened. Are you telling me that if you restart the game, play for 20 seconds, and then realize a team has 6 players, you might then stop the game and say it was your mistake?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Or, if you do have definite knowledge of the player leaving the court and reenter illegally. It would be a team technical. 10-1-6

10-1-6 is one possibility, but if that is the call it doesn't matter whether he entered illegally or not. In this case I know that he did, so I was uncertain whether to call it on the player or the team.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by swkansasref33

I would say unless you our your partner SAW him leave the court, and have definite knowledge, it is an official's mistake. I dont know how much experience you have, and if you are experienced, you know the rule about counting players, and checking with your partner. If you do not have DEFINITE knowledge of the player leaving the court, then I would stop play, correct the sitch, and resume play POI.

I don't know how experienced you are, but you definitely don't know the rules.

Once the ball has been touched on the throw-in, the White team had more than 5 players participating simultaneously. It's a technical foul under rule 10-1-6 and you have absolutely no rules support to correct play without issuing a "T".

Casebook play 10.1.6(a) states that once you recognize that a team has 6 participating, it's a technical foul. And casebook play 10.1.6 is a reference to rule 10-1-6, which states that it's a team technical foul.

[Nevadaref]

The question of which T to assess is a good one. Here's my take.

Since you did not observe #21 come back onto the court, you don't know if he did it while the ball was still dead or if he came on during play while the ball was live.
Therefore, the only call that is supported by the rules here is the TEAM technical foul for having more than five team members participating.

The illegal substitution T which would be charged to the individual needs to be observed as he enters during a live ball. If he simply walked off and then came back before the throw-in began, he really shouldn't be penalized for illegal entry/substitution because he may not have been the player who was actually supposed to leave. That's a kid/coach being confused. As long as the ball hasn't yet become live that can be sorted out. However, once the throw-in begins, the TEAM must be penalized. NO WAY should an official stop play and then continue at the POI without penalty as suggested by a previous poster.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Since you did not observe #21 come back onto the court, you don't know if he did it while the ball was still dead or if he came on during play while the ball was live.
Therefore, the only call that is supported by the rules here is the TEAM technical foul for having more than five team members participating.

I agree, FWIW.

[Chess Ref]

Had a game where player was substituted out and coach had her stand on the court so "we couldn't" start the game. He was just being a azz and trying to show us who was running the show.

My partner,a grizzled and well respected vet, gave him a heads up ,and then put the ball in play. Tweeted and gave a team tech.

It was actually pretty funny.

We didn't have that issue anymore that night.

[cdoug]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Had a game where player was substituted out and coach had her stand on the court so "we couldn't" start the game. He was just being a azz and trying to show us who was running the show.

My partner,a grizzled and well respected vet, gave him a heads up ,and then put the ball in play. Tweeted and gave a team tech.

It was actually pretty funny.

We didn't have that issue anymore that night.

Maybe I misunderstand but couldn't that have been a delay instead?

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by cdoug

Maybe I misunderstand but couldn't that have been a delay instead?

Ask yourself this, Does it meet any of the delay of game criteria?

I would have T'ed in the situation. It's clear the coach was being unsporting.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by cdoug

Maybe I misunderstand but couldn't that have been a delay instead?

Why do we want to give coaches/players so much leeway???? What are we scared of here? Hes being a sh!thead and thinks hes being cute. Stick em and move on. I dont get why a lot of officials are so very concerned with keeping coaches happy. Our primary resposibility is to to officiate the game. Coaches "happiness" does not fall into this.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Ask yourself this, Does it meet any of the delay of game criteria?

I would have T'ed in the situation. It's clear the coach was being unsporting.

That would be what happened......

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Since you did not observe #21 come back onto the court, you don't know if he did it while the ball was still dead or if he came on during play while the ball was live.
Therefore, the only call that is supported by the rules here is the TEAM technical foul for having more than five team members participating.

Actually, I do know. I watched #21 leave the court and sit down on the bench. As I put the ball in play, I was on the endline opposite the bench. When I heard the coach asking for timeout, I looked toward the bench and the coach was the only person standing. I know that #21 entered the court illegally, even though I did not actually see him do so.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Once the ball has been touched on the throw-in, the White team had more than 5 players participating simultaneously. It's a technical foul under rule 10-1-6 and you have absolutely no rules support to correct play without issuing a "T".

Not to be a stickler here but since we are intent on making sure we have this play right according to the rules..well the substitute upon illegal entry, becomes a legal player once the ball becomes LIVE!

Once the ball is handed to the thrower or @ the thrower's disposal then the ball would be live, substitute becomes a legal player, total of 6, team technical when discovered.