4 players

[Troward]

JV game last night: after a time out Team A did not break the huddle at the second horn and my partner put the ball in play under the resuming play procdure. 4 players from team A immediately ran onto the court and inbounded the ball. The ball is now inbounded and Coach of team A realizes he only has 4 players on the court so he requests a time out and to sub in the 5th player.
There is no technical foul to be assessed for this correct?

[Brian Watson]

I don't see a T.

[APHP]

If you did not notice that there were only 4 players on the court before granting the timeout--then no tec. However, if you did notice that there were only 4 players on the court for one team, then the tec comes before the timeout...it would be a team tec after a timeout.

[Brian Watson]

Originally posted by APHP
If you did not notice that there were only 4 players on the court before granting the timeout--then no tec. However, if you did notice that there were only 4 players on the court for one team, then the tec comes before the timeout...it would be a team tec after a timeout.

What?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Had the exact thing happen last night in a Varsity Girls game. Only had 4 return about 15 seconds after the 2nd horn. My partner wouldn't put the ball in play. When I saw only 4, I held my partner up for another 5 seconds and said we needed another player.

About two weeks ago the coach (41 years old, relatively thin and fit) had a heart attack and then triple bypass surgery. A previous coach, (and now Vice Principal, and also our district representative on the State Athletic Board,) has stepped in to help. I'm sure he is frustrated coaching a team that he didn't pick or train.

The team is pitiful - can't pass, can't catch, can't dribble, can't shoot; there are probably some other missing skills too. Their record is 0 and 10 or something close to that. The score at the end of the first quarter was 2-18. The 2 were from free throws - no field goals. They were late from every time out. Were not even on the court when the horn sounded to end half time. 5 seconds later they entered to begin the second half.

Toward the end of the game they (Home) became frustrated and began doing stupid things like slamming the ball, kicking at the other team, coach yelling at the refs. The one technical foul that we did administer was in the 2nd quarter to the Visiting team - one of their players was not in the book. In the second half the Home team seemed to wake up slightly and scored some field goals. They even made it into the 20's but lost by about 30 to a very gracious visiting team that relaxed and took it easy, rather than playing to their potential.

In summary we passed on several T's and it sounds like one should have been assessed for not enough players returning after a timeout? Per NFHS 10-1-9

[kmref]

I've never heard of TECHing a team for too few players.
WHY??



Chuck-see what I mean about the differences from the NCAA rules. Me no understand.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

APHP said it with all kinds of confidence. Mine was a question... and I guessed at what might be the applicable rule.

[BktBallRef]

...guys please don't call a T in this situation. It's a simple mistake, no advantage is gained and it's not the intent of the rule.

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
... it sounds like one should have been assessed for not enough players returning after a timeout?

No such rule.

10-1-9 is designed for situations where a player leaves his bench and enters the game after the ball becomes live. Could it be written better to reflect that? Sure, but that doesn't change the intent of it.

[Tim C]

Please direct me to the rule that says you call a Technical Foul for this issue.

It can be NFHS, NCAA or NAIA.

Thanks,

[zebraman]

There is a technical foul that says that all players must return to the game at the same time. However.... the case book cites an example where a team uses deception to gain an advantage by bringing the 5th player in later and the T is called when the 5th player returns. Hold the T. If the 5th player returns during a live ball, then call the technical.
Z

[Lotto]

Originally posted by Tim C
Please direct me to the rule that says you call a Technical Foul for this issue.

NCAA: How about

Rule 10-3
Art. 17. Purposely delaying his or her return to the playing court after being legally out of bounds.

or

Rule 10-3
Art. 1. Delay of game. A team shall not delay the game.

or the ever popular

Section 3. Elastic Power
Art. 1. The referee shall be empowered to make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

All of these should be interpreted through

Rule 3-1
Art. 1. At the start of the game, each team shall consist of five players...

and the rules that substitutes actually take the place of someone on the floor, so unless there are fewer than 5 eligible players, a team will always consiste of 5 players.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Both my game and Troward's were High School, NFHS games. Sounds like neither of us issued a T.... correctly.

No attempt at deception here.... just confusion. By itself, confusion is not punishable per rule.

Delay of game could have been used as justification. The stand-in coach is trying to squeek every possible second for coaching his 'new' team and he definitely stepped beyond the reasonable and prudent line. To issue a T would only add insult to his injury. No benefit to this particular game. The visiting coach wasn't screaming for a T or more foul calls or anything. He knew he was going to win probably 5 minutes into the game - when the home team hadn't even engaged yet.

Only 4 players returning, due to confusion and not deception, is not a T-ing offense.

[Tim C]

I seem to fail to understand your references:

1) NCAA 10.3 Art 17 -- the example was not intentional nor did it delay the game. In our evaluator's camp this has always been consider a call that would be made if there was a nerferious reason not simply someone failing to understand that they are in or out of the game.

2) NCAA 10.3 Art 1 -- This is not delaying the game. The offical seems to have put the ball " in play" (right or wrong on the mechanics side).

3) Section 3 -- Elastic Powers. Again, in the evaluation clinics we are taught to review this issue as Baseball Umpires use 9.01 (c) in OBR. It is used with a great amount of care and consideration. While I do agree that an NCAA official can use this with fore thought I doubt if playing with four players "really" is what this section was intended to cover.

4) Rule 3 -- The spirit and intent of this rule is obviously to cover six (or more) players on the court OR a time in the game where a coach could try to gain an advantage by not allowing a player onto the court when he has an eligible player (i.e. a bad free throw shooter in crunch time).

What I would state, with about as strong a voice as possible, is that the OFFICIALS have the responsibility to only begin play when both teams have the correct number of eligible players on the court.

Far before a Technical Foul call I would expect, as a "long time" (that means old) college official and relatively new college evaluator that the whole issue is based aroound poor mechanics rather than a coaching sin.

I would certainly hope that EVEN IF an official put a ball into play with TOO FEW players on the court (too many may be considered differently) that the official would be smart enough and intuitive enough to stop play and correct the oversite. While not a correctable error in the interest of equal play the correction would be made.

Thanks for the situations and your view of the issue. It helped me a lot.

[Lotto]

Originally posted by Tim C
I seem to fail to understand your references: .....

Tim -

I agree with everything you say.

I wouldn't call a T in this situation. In fact, after counting the players on the court after the teams break their huddle and coming to four, I would give a toot and call for the fifth player to come out onto the floor. Basic preventive (preventative?) officiating.

My post was meant to be a response to the person who asked for a rule reference under which one could justify a T in that situation.

If, for example, after I gave a toot and called for the fifth player to come out onto the floor, they didn't, I might consider a T (based on the rule references I cited) for delay of game. I don't think it's right to put the ball into play when there are only 4 players on the court---it's just asking for more trouble later on when the coach suddenly realizes what's going on and the fifth player runs onto the court. What if that fifth player gets a long cherry picking pass and an easy layup? Now one has a real problem...

-Ben

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by Lotto

Rule 3-1
Art. 1. At the start of the game, each team shall consist of five players...

and the rules that substitutes actually take the place of someone on the floor, so unless there are fewer than 5 eligible players, a team will always consiste of 5 players.

What about foul outs and injuries and only having four eligible players? Going to T that situation?