End of game situation

[rwest]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, then I'm taking off my purple leisure suit, putting on my striped shirt with a collar, and declaring the game over because back in the 1980's there was the rule on lag time, where the official was required to allow 1 second to run off because of a timer's reaction time.


I agree, but there is still a difference between "accurate" and "definite", and the rules allow for an official's count, even if it is inaccurate.

Look at case play 5.10.1 Sit. B - The ball is inbounded by A in the backcourt with 12 seconds left, A2 continues to dribble in the backcourt the official loses track of his count, and the clock expires. The ruling is the game is over. How come? If I was to do what's "fair", I would say there should've been a 10-second violation, put 2 seconds on the clock, and give the ball to B for a throw-in. But that is not what happens.


Screwed? Yes in both cases. But I would rather screw up a mechanic than a rule. And putting up time without definite information as provided by the rules would be screwing up a rule.


I understand your thinking. However, how do you explain 5-6-2, Art. 2 & 3?


Not according to the rules.

When you blow your whistle and then look up at the clock, there is a slight delay. We never know exactly what time was on the clock. We know what time was on the clock after we blew our whistle. That is the time we use for definite knowledge purposes. If we blow our whistle to grant a time out and then the buzzer sounds, we have definite knowledge that there was time on the clock. However, if the clock doesn't show tenths then we don't know exactly how much time to put on the clock.

For those who suggest we don't put time on the clock, what are you going to do if the clock operator is biased and allows the clock to run out knowing that the clock doesn't show tenths of a second? And also knowing you can't put time on the clock if you don't have definite knowldedge. Sorry coach, you got hosed by the home team clock operator but since I don't have definite knowledge, game over. Now, what happens if this is a state championship?

It could happen!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rwest

When you blow your whistle and then look up at the clock, there is a slight delay. We never know exactly what time was on the clock. We know what time was on the clock after we blew our whistle. That is the time we use for definite knowledge purposes.

Agreed. What's your point here?

Originally Posted by rwest

If we blow our whistle to grant a time out and then the buzzer sounds, we have definite knowledge that there was time on the clock. However, if the clock doesn't show tenths then we don't know exactly how much time to put on the clock.

Again, can you explain rule 5-6-2 Art. 2 & 3, and how it applies in this very instance?

Originally Posted by rwest

For those who suggest we don't put time on the clock, what are you going to do if the clock operator is biased and allows the clock to run out knowing that the clock doesn't show tenths of a second? And also knowing you can't put time on the clock if you don't have definite knowldedge. Sorry coach, you got hosed by the home team clock operator but since I don't have definite knowledge, game over. Now, what happens if this is a state championship?

It could happen!

If it really is a state championship game, what are the odds the home team will supply the clock operator? What are the odds this game will be played in a gym with a clock that does not show tenths? What are the odds the officials will not be good enough to know the proper rules and mechanics to make sure this situation does not occur? What if a meteor hits right at that exact moment?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Agreed. What's your point here?


Again, can you explain rule 5-6-2 Art. 2 & 3, and how it applies in this very instance?


If it really is a state championship game, what are the odds the home team will supply the clock operator? What are the odds this game will be played in a gym with a clock that does not show tenths? What are the odds the officials will not be good enough to know the proper rules and mechanics to make sure this situation does not occur? What if a meteor hits right at that exact moment?

We never have definite knowlegde. Ever!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rwest

...
For those who suggest we don't put time on the clock, what are you going to do if the clock operator is biased and allows the clock to run out knowing that the clock doesn't show tenths of a second? ...

You mean "what are going to do when we as a crew failed to do our jobs and observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew?"

And reading through a lot these answers some are going to

1. set aside the rule book and make up a time...or...
2. lie to the table personnel and coaches and tell them you observed #.# on the clock. Which means you will also have to evetually lie to your supervisor about the situation.

So to summarize. As a crew all 3 (or 2) officials fail to do their duty and observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew and the way to rectify the situation is to either lie or ignore the rule book.

Where is Nevada when you need him.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You mean "what are going to do when we as a crew failed to do our jobs and observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew?"

And reading through a lot these answers some are going to

1. set aside the rule book and make up a time...or...
2. lie to the table personnel and coaches and tell them you observed #.# on the clock. Which means you will also have to evetually lie to your supervisor about the situation.

So to summarize. As a crew all 3 (or 2) officials fail to do their duty and observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew and the way to rectify the situation is to either lie or ignore the rule book.

Where is Nevada when you need him.

The crew did not fail to do their job. The clock operator was biased and failed to stop the clock on purpose. We can't see how much time is on the clock because the clock doesn't show tenths of a second. I've never suggested setting aside a rule so please don't accuse me of that. I'm suggesting that if you go by the strick definition of definite, you can never put time on the clock because we never know exactly how much time is on the clock when we blew our whistle. There will always be a lag.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rwest

The crew did not fail to do their job. The clock operator was biased and failed to stop the clock on purpose. We can't see how much time is on the clock because the clock doesn't show tenths of a second. I've never suggested setting aside a rule so please don't accuse me of that. I'm suggesting that is you go by the strick definition of definite, you can never put time on the clock because we never know exactly how much time is on the clock when we blew are whistle. There will always be a lag.

Whatever number you observed on the clock is the number you put up. If the crew is doing its job properly then it wouldn't matter how bias the timer was. You hear/blow the whistle and you immediately glance at the clock, especially in an end-of-game situation.

As I stated earlier, we're talking about "rule book" definition not the dictionary definition.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Whatever number you observed on the clock is the number you put up. If the crew is doing its job properly then it wouldn't matter how bias the timer was. You hear/blow the whistle and you immediately glance at the clock, especially in an end-of-game situation.

As I stated earlier, we're talking about "rule book" definition not the dictionary definition.

Is the word "definite" defined in the rule book?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rwest

Is the word "definite" defined in the rule book?

I hate to be redundant (inside joke):

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Hmm...let me think...how about follow the rules? How about 5-10-1: "The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."

So, what happens if an official didn't look at the clock? How about 5-10-2: "If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction".
...

[rwest]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Whatever number you observed on the clock is the number you put up. If the crew is doing its job properly then it wouldn't matter how bias the timer was. You hear/blow the whistle and you immediately glance at the clock, especially in an end-of-game situation.

As I stated earlier, we're talking about "rule book" definition not the dictionary definition.

If I blow my whistle and I look up and the clock shows 0 seconds and then some time later (obviously less than a second) the horn sounds, what are you going to do? It has nothing to do with the crew failing to do their job. And a biased clock operator can have a huge impact on the game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

If I blow my whistle and I look up and the clock shows 0 seconds and then some time later (obviously less than a second) the horn sounds, what are you going to do? It has nothing to do with the crew failing to do their job. And a biased clock operator can have a huge impact on the game.

Up until just a couple of years ago, you could do nothing here since there was a 1 second lag time built into the rule. It's normal reaction time, so you can't accuse the time of biased behavior based on a 1 second lag.

The change came, presumably with the increasing ubiquity of the more advanced game clocks that display tenths. If you have a clock that doesn't display tenths, there truly is nothing you can do.