The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 01:51pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. But if I come up with block, and my partner comes up with charge, we've got ourselves a blarge.
No, you've got yourself a conference where one of you two is going to be a grown up, defer the call, and get a single call because it can't really be both a block and a charge. You are absolutely NOT going to both insist your call is right and not back down. If a crew cant get together and get this right, that is just lame.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 02:15pm
If you need me, text me!
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ocean City, MD
Posts: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdaref View Post
No, you've got yourself a conference where one of you two is going to be a grown up, defer the call, and get a single call because it can't really be both a block and a charge. You are absolutely NOT going to both insist your call is right and not back down. If a crew cant get together and get this right, that is just lame.

In NCAA women's you are correct. We get together and go with the primary officials call. In NFHS and NCAA men's it has to be a double foul.
NFHS case 4.19.8 Situation C
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 02:26pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdaref View Post
No, you've got yourself a conference where one of you two is going to be a grown up, defer the call, and get a single call because it can't really be both a block and a charge. You are absolutely NOT going to both insist your call is right and not back down. If a crew cant get together and get this right, that is just lame.
The rule is if both officials give preliminary signals, you cannot defer (in spite of what jar says above) to your partner. In NFHS and NCAA-M, being a grown up means going by the prescribed mechanic and calling the double foul.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 02:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
The rule is if both officials give preliminary signals, you cannot defer (in spite of what jar says above) to your partner. In NFHS and NCAA-M, being a grown up means going by the prescribed mechanic and calling the double foul.
I'm sure at our "get together" either I or my partner will learn that the other had the better look. A preliminary signal is no more a binding irreversible ruling than an out of bounds call.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 18, 2009, 11:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,673
Send a message via MSN to IREFU2 Send a message via Yahoo to IREFU2
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdaref View Post
I'm sure at our "get together" either I or my partner will learn that the other had the better look. A preliminary signal is no more a binding irreversible ruling than an out of bounds call.
Ummm...then you will be kicking a rule.
__________________
Score the Basket!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 02:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
The rule is if both officials give preliminary signals, you cannot defer (in spite of what jar says above) to your partner. In NFHS and NCAA-M, being a grown up means going by the prescribed mechanic and calling the double foul.
Of course you can defer. There is no such thing as a binding irreversible signal. The only call that counts is the one reported to the table. Find me a rule that says a preliminary signal is binding and irreversible. You can't. There isnt one.

If preliminary signals now are binding and non-reversible, what do you do with the jump/foul double whistle or the out of bounds call that your partner comes over and tells you there was a tip. I guess we shoot the free throw for the foul then go to the AP arrow for the jump? Uh, no. Or we tell the coach, "sorry coach, I know my partner saw the tip, but I pointed to blue and that signal is irreversible." No.

This idea of an irreversible preliminary signal is absurd.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 02:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 5,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdaref View Post
Of course you can defer. There is no such thing as a binding irreversible signal. The only call that counts is the one reported to the table. Find me a rule that says a preliminary signal is binding and irreversible. You can't. There isnt one.

If preliminary signals now are binding and non-reversible, what do you do with the jump/foul double whistle or the out of bounds call that your partner comes over and tells you there was a tip. I guess we shoot the free throw for the foul then go to the AP arrow for the jump? Uh, no. Or we tell the coach, "sorry coach, I know my partner saw the tip, but I pointed to blue and that signal is irreversible." No.

This idea of an irreversible preliminary signal is absurd.
Then please explain 4.19.8 Sit. C.
__________________
M&M's - The Official Candy of the Department of Redundancy Department.

(Used with permission.)
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 02:50pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
Then please explain 4.19.8 Sit. C.
I can't explain it.

BUT I can say that it does not mandate that preliminary signals are irreversible. I think the only way to understand 4.19.8(C) is to think of the situation where both officials steadfastly insist their call is correct and there is no other way to resolve it. Otherwise it doesnt make sense.

What I refuse to do is read into an already whacky case play an even whackier new RULE: that preliminary signals now are mandatory and unchangable and there cannot be any deferring. I dont think 4.19.8(C) dictates that.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 02:55pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 151
Even the official's manual calls the signal on the floor a "preliminary signal."

2.4.2(B)(4): "lower the foul signal [fist] and indicate the nature of the foul by giving a preliminary signal."

THEN

2.4.2(C)(2): "If the situation necesitates a discussion with the other officials, have the discussion before reporting to the table so that the correct call and information is conveyed to the table."

That right there says after the preliminary signal the officials can get together and discuss the call to make sure the CORRECT CALL is made.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 03:00pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 151
Of course, 2.4.8 which talks about double whistles also says the officials should get together to "determine the correct call" and that the decision on the final call should be left to the primary area official.

So I just dont see any rule support for this idea that preliminary signals are irrevocable and unchangable. In fact, the manuals are to teh contrary--officials should get together and make changes as needed to make sure the call reported to the table is correct.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 02:58pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdaref View Post
I can't explain it.

BUT I can say that it does not mandate that preliminary signals are irreversible. I think the only way to understand 4.19.8(C) is to think of the situation where both officials steadfastly insist their call is correct and there is no other way to resolve it. Otherwise it doesnt make sense.

What I refuse to do is read into an already whacky case play an even whackier new RULE: that preliminary signals now are mandatory and unchangable and there cannot be any deferring. I dont think 4.19.8(C) dictates that.
Then you're reading this case play differently than virtually every high school and college assigner and rules interpreter I've ever heard, read, or seen. If that was their intent, they'd have written the case play like the NCAAW, telling the officials to get together and make a decision.

This is the only case where the prelims become binding, and the reasoning is simple even if it is "suspect."
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 03:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Then you're reading this case play differently than virtually every high school and college assigner and rules interpreter I've ever heard, read, or seen. If that was their intent, they'd have written the case play like the NCAAW, telling the officials to get together and make a decision.

This is the only case where the prelims become binding, and the reasoning is simple even if it is "suspect."
Snaq, if that is true, then I have to be wrong. I dont believe I am. I think my reading makes more sense. But I dont have your experience on this. I certainly cant say I have any idea how "virtually every high school and college assigner and rules interpreter" interprets this. If you and CR and others say I'm wrong, what choice do I have but to concede. I've stated the way I read it and why, if I'm wrong I'm wrong. I cant challenge your guys' experience with how it is called across the country.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 03:20pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdaref View Post
I can't explain it.

BUT I can say that it does not mandate that preliminary signals are irreversible. I think the only way to understand 4.19.8(C) is to think of the situation where both officials steadfastly insist their call is correct and there is no other way to resolve it. Otherwise it doesnt make sense.

What I refuse to do is read into an already whacky case play an even whackier new RULE: that preliminary signals now are mandatory and unchangable and there cannot be any deferring. I dont think 4.19.8(C) dictates that.
Well, it does dictate that in this ONE situation. It is not about insisting one is correct or who had a "better" look. Both officials saw what they felt was good enough to blow the whistle but they disagreed. For them to even come to differnet conclusions implies that it was a pretty close call. For one to change/defer means that one official effectively overrules the other. You also can't decide which happened first because it is the same act.

Like it or not, NCAA-M and NFHS say that once the officials signal with opposite calls in a block/charge, it is too late for either to change...with an exception for being in the restricted area.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 03:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 151
If that's true, then I am wrong. I can live with that. I will continue to pregame holding signals to stay out of the blarge nightmare. Because even if I am right, having two officials with two different calls and signals is a pregameable and avoidable situation.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2009, 02:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 151
I will concede, of course, that I have no freaking clue how 4.19.8(C) can be possible with just A1 and B1. I could see, perhaps, A1 charges into B1, while at the exact same time secondary defender B2 blocks A1.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Blarge tjones1 Basketball 4 Thu Dec 28, 2006 01:46am
Blarge -- or was it? rainmaker Basketball 3 Sun Mar 26, 2006 09:04am
Blarge All_Heart Basketball 14 Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:39pm
Another Blarge Snake~eyes Basketball 6 Fri Jan 13, 2006 03:16pm
Blarge or not? ChuckElias Basketball 9 Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:57am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:08pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1