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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 04:29pm
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Partner tosses coach

Yesterday, I worked three 5th-6th grade boys games in a "competitive" league at a local venue. All these boys attend various camps and their coaches are the guys who run those camps.

Second game, team A scores. B1 grabs the ball after the basket and immediately tosses it to my partner who is the new trail (two person mechanics) and who is standing OOB along the endline. My partner jumps out of the way, lets the ball bounce away and starts his five second count. B1 runs after the ball, grabs it along the sideline and throws it in. My partner, who has already reached five seconds, blows his whistle for the inbound violation.

Coach B goes nuts. He runs down from his bench (on the other side of the division line) and gets right up in my partner's face, yelling about how that was a "bush league play" and "where did he think he was - in the NBA?". My partner (a guy I've known for about five years) tosses him. The guy yells a little more, then gets outta Dodge.

I had no problem with the toss, but do you think my partner did the right thing in avoiding the ball instead of just tapping it back to B1? He told me afterward that he was going to explain the violation to the player but the coach took away his chance.

Actually, I've done the same thing a few times over the years, and I always explain it to the players. That's how they learn.

BTW - it was great to see an old acquaintance, David Lucas (Maurice Lucas' younger son) coaching at this place. I've known him ever since I used to ref his 3rd grade games. He's now in his late 20s and about 10 feet tall. We talked for a few minutes. Unfortunately, I didn't get any of his games, but I hope I will in the future. He's a great kid and he runs camps, besides playing on a semi-pro team.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 04:56pm
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If the kid caught it and threw it right away, I might give him the benefit of the doubt and not call the violation. It seems he knew he needed to hurry, so the point was made. If it happened again, I'd be more inclined to call the violation (assuming 5 seconds passed).

As for the initial action, I've done both; tapped it back and dodged the ball. I've also let it hit me and drop straight down.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 05:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
Yesterday, I worked three 5th-6th grade boys games in a "competitive" league at a local venue. All these boys attend various camps and their coaches are the guys who run those camps.

Second game, team A scores. B1 grabs the ball after the basket and immediately tosses it to my partner who is the new trail (two person mechanics) and who is standing OOB along the endline. My partner jumps out of the way, lets the ball bounce away and starts his five second count. B1 runs after the ball, grabs it along the sideline and throws it in. My partner, who has already reached five seconds, blows his whistle for the inbound violation.

Coach B goes nuts. He runs down from his bench (on the other side of the division line) and gets right up in my partner's face, yelling about how that was a "bush league play" and "where did he think he was - in the NBA?". My partner (a guy I've known for about five years) tosses him. The guy yells a little more, then gets outta Dodge.

I had no problem with the toss, but do you think my partner did the right thing in avoiding the ball instead of just tapping it back to B1? He told me afterward that he was going to explain the violation to the player but the coach took away his chance.

Actually, I've done the same thing a few times over the years, and I always explain it to the players. That's how they learn.

BTW - it was great to see an old acquaintance, David Lucas (Maurice Lucas' younger son) coaching at this place. I've known him ever since I used to ref his 3rd grade games. He's now in his late 20s and about 10 feet tall. We talked for a few minutes. Unfortunately, I didn't get any of his games, but I hope I will in the future. He's a great kid and he runs camps, besides playing on a semi-pro team.
I don't have a problem with any of this but I'd most likely tap the ball back to the player for 2 reasons.

1. It avoids an un-nessacary whistle & keeps the game moving. Yes, even in a 5th/6th grade game tempo & flow are important.
2. We don't get into the confrontation with the coach.

I would also remind the player at the next dead ball oppurtunity of the inbound rule. I see that as the way they learn.

Good on your partner for running the coach, sounds like the howler monkey earned it, though I'm a little surprised based on your previous posts you didn't get him for being out of his box and crossing center....

Cheers!
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 05:09pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
I've also let it hit me and drop straight down.
Agreed. This usually gets the message across so it doesn't happen again. I'm not throwing or hitting it back under any competitive circumstances, but I'm also not going to play dodge ball with it unless it's a pass when play is already underway inbounds.

But what if, after a made basket, Magic Junior tosses the ball to the official and it hits off said official's foot and a) bounds onto the court? or b) bounds onto the court and then again OB at a sideline?

I'd tend to think "play on" in 'a' but not sure if the extended logic that would call for an OB violation in 'b' holds up. Help. I have pretty big feet.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 05:10pm
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I most definitely would not have jumped out the way. My reflexes most likely would lead me to simply tap the ball back towards the player or down to the floor (as I am telling him/her that the ball is still live, keep playing).
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 05:11pm
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5th and 6th grade I would probably just tap it back and quickly tell him/her that I donít need it after a score. Grades higher than that I would try and dodge the ball.

Any coach, regardless of level, gets a T or worse if they come across the court to get in my face.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 05:16pm
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Why dodge it?

I have tapped the ball back scores of times and thought nothing of it. It is almost always momentary confusion on the player's part or a lack of understanding of the rules by a younger player. Either way, it is a nothing moment and me dodging the ball makes it something and puts me in the spotlight. Somewhat the opposite of preventive officiating.

I just don't see any reason to dodge the ball. Tap it and play on.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 05:20pm
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I too would have just tapped the ball and let it fall or bounce back to the player. These are 5th & 6th graders, not varsity or college players...they may not know any better. As a former youth coach, I can see his perspective. It looks like the kid was set up to violate. Just the same, it's not a license to loose your mind and go off.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 05:39pm
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Originally Posted by Fathertime View Post
I just don't see any reason to dodge the ball. Tap it and play on.
You make a good point. Iím trying to think of a reason why I should dodge the ball at any level as opposed to just tapping it back.

What would you do if you try to dodge it and it still glances of your knee and bounces once on the OOB side and then onto the court. I believe you would have to go with a violation for not passing the ball directly onto the court.

What is the rational for not tapping it back to the thrower in say a varsity game?
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 05:45pm
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I tapped it back to a player last year while being evaluated in a high school game and the evaluator commended me for it. It's good game management if you ask me. If usually only happens with junior high kids who don't have a clue what they're doing.

With that said, the coach definitely deserved to go if he acted like Mark said he did.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 05:45pm
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Originally Posted by Vinski View Post
What is the rational for not tapping it back to the thrower in say a varsity game?
Agreed younger kids can get a lift here. But for varsity, would you tap it back to a passer who's inbounds, say in a half-court set, and mistakenly flips it your way? There's your answer.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 06:24pm
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Originally Posted by Amesman View Post
Agreed younger kids can get a lift here. But for varsity, would you tap it back to a passer who's inbounds, say in a half-court set, and mistakenly flips it your way? There's your answer.
I don't think the two situations are similar.

I have had this happen in girls V games more than once. I don't tap it back "to them" but I do let it hit me or stop it with my hand before it hits me and continue (or start) my count. After all, hitting an official is just like hitting the floor and a player (after a goal) can run the end line, pass along the endline, dribble and do almost anything they want for 5 seconds.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 06:54pm
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I don't see why I should dodge the ball or just let it hit me. I do not need to touch the ball after a made basket, but the rules do not prohibit me touching it. The player gains no advantage by tossing me the ball, he may even lose a fast break opportunity. Nobody is going to get surprised because the official unwittingly participated in a "trick play".

I'm there to facilitate the game. So if a kid has a brain fart and tosses me the ball after a made basket, I just toss it back to him and we go on. If it happens again, I'd probably talk to the kid at a break. But why would I make any kind of issue of it?
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 07:03pm
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I too am from the camp of either sticking my hand out and allowing the ball hit it and drop straight down or just flicking it back to the player. I am more likely to say something like, "I don't need it after a basket" if they are young (sub Freshman HS).

I must admit, it never occurred to me to purposely move out of the way and let the ball go.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 07:37pm
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Years ago, I was watching the end of a game, waiting for my shift to start. I saw one of the officials jump out of the way of the ball in this situation. After the game, I asked him why he did it. He said it was just a reflex, the same as he does if the ball comes towards him on the court. He just couldn't help reacting that way.

Sounded logical to me.
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