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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 01:32pm
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Exclamation Partner tosses coach in first minute of game!

I helped out a friend by taking an 8th grade girls elite (top competitive level) game at the last minute last night. My partner was someone new to me, but he called a very good game overall.

With only about 45 seconds gone in the game, I was waiting for a girl to retrieve the ball which had gone into the next court so we could have a throw-in. I was on the corner of the side line and the end line diagonally opposite the visitor's bench. I heard my partner blow his whistle and turned around to see him giving a T to the visiting coach and then making the "you're outta here" signal. The coach just stared, then picked up his stuff and walked out. I went over to my partner to get the skinny.

Apparently he heard the coach say very loudly to one of his players, "The next time she pushes you, punch her right in the mouth until she stops."

My partner said that qualified as flagrant unsportsmanlike conduct, since the coach was directing a player to physically assault another player.

I said, "ooooo kay" and just let it pass.

What do you guys think?
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 01:36pm
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I think he did absolutely the right thing.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 01:39pm
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Wow! I don't have a problem with it....I guess you could argue that the coach was speaking hypothetically and didn't really mean it, but heck you never know!! The words themselves warrant the ejection IMO, I suppose it comes down to whether think he really meant it and whether you thought that his player really took him literally if you decide you don't want to toss him...

Going on a slight tangent, I would think you might have some liability issues here if you don't do something and the girl goes and does it and somebody decides to get litigious...in this case I wonder if just a T would hold up in court!
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 01:39pm
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My opinion is a comment like that has no place in the game I officiate, especially at a younger level. I am not sure I would eject for a comment like that, but I would certainly "T" for it (it would depend on what I had for breakfast). I would support my partner if he/she decided to toss the coach.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 01:44pm
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Buh-bye. This is one of the few situations from early in my officiating career that I still regret not giving a T. Had a very similar situation where a coach made a similar comment and I simply said to the player, "That's bad advice." I should've just tossed him right there.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 01:45pm
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You cannot quote silence.

For this level I might not have done that, but I will not criticize anyone that took such action. Good for your partner.

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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 01:49pm
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I guess if he said it loud enough for an official to hear it. That probably means every girl on the bench heard it also, which means he just broke the rules of the coaches cunduct.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
I helped out a friend by taking an 8th grade girls elite (top competitive level) game at the last minute last night. My partner was someone new to me, but he called a very good game overall.

With only about 45 seconds gone in the game, I was waiting for a girl to retrieve the ball which had gone into the next court so we could have a throw-in. I was on the corner of the side line and the end line diagonally opposite the visitor's bench. I heard my partner blow his whistle and turned around to see him giving a T to the visiting coach and then making the "you're outta here" signal. The coach just stared, then picked up his stuff and walked out. I went over to my partner to get the skinny.

Apparently he heard the coach say very loudly to one of his players, "The next time she pushes you, punch her right in the mouth until she stops."

My partner said that qualified as flagrant unsportsmanlike conduct, since the coach was directing a player to physically assault another player.

I said, "ooooo kay" and just let it pass.

What do you guys think?
I agree with the call.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:03pm
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Well I must say I have never heard of anything remotely close to this, unbelievable. I certainly would see why someone would want a individual like this out of their game. By the letter of the law (sort of speak)I just can't find where the rules support a Flagrant Technical for his comments.

In a 8th grade game, why not. If its a varsity game I just don't think the rules support it. Whack him!!! Let him know why loud enough for the players to hear. Let the players know anything close to a punch being thrown would be ejection from this game and they would have to sit the next.

He can't be charged for fighting or leaving the bench during a fight. Which would be the only Flagrant Technical options. Fighting being defined in Rule 4-18

Art. 1 An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.

Art.2 An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act TOWARD an opponent that CAUSES AN OPPONENT TO RETALIATE BY FIGHTING.

IMO I think your only option here is to tag him with the following...

FED Rule 10-4 Bench Technicals Art 1 c. Using profane or inappropriate language or obscene gestures.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:13pm
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I think 4.19.4 has you covered

Art. 4... A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

This is certainly unacceptable and you could argue that it is extreme...fighting is a flagrant act, but not the only flagrant act...
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:21pm
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Hmmm. I don't have my rule books here, but doesn't the definition of a flagrant technical include a comment about "extreme conduct"? I would certainly classify what this coach said as extreme and have no real issue with the partner tossing him...I would also have been fine with the partner just whacking him and telling him it better not happen again...

Mark, where was this team from? I ask because my oldest brother is coaching his daughter's 8th grade team (they live in Amity) and - unfortunately - this really sounds exactly like something he would tell my niece.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
I think 4.19.4 has you covered

Art. 4... A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

This is certainly unacceptable and you could argue that it is extreme...fighting is a flagrant act, but not the only flagrant act...
I see your point and maybe this would be the right argument. IMHO.. This is still penalized under Bench Technicals which doesn't have a provision for the flagrant "T" unless fighting is involved.

The rule specifically says, "fighting." It didn't say fighting or extreme act. I think we have to look under 4-19-5 d., Since the coach is a non player, and we are penalizing his actions.
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Last edited by Gimlet25id; Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 02:31pm.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:27pm
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Speaking as a parent, I would certainly hope someone would toss the guy, report him to the authorities and get him suspended from coaching. That kind of talk has no place in any work with youth of any kind. Even when a dad is telling his kid to stick up for him or her self, you don't do it by punching someone who bumps you. And it's never, never funny.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
I see your point and maybe this would be the right argument. IMHO.. This is still penalized under Bench Technicals which doesn't have a provision for the flagrant "T" unless fighting is involved.

The rule specifically says, "fighting." It didn't say fighting or extreme act. Rule 4-19-4 IMO is defining extreme acts... as fighting.
In this case, I don't care what the rule books say. I'm not reffing a game with a guy like that in the gym, if I know about it. Either he goes, or I go. Period.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad
Mark, where was this team from? I ask because my oldest brother is coaching his daughter's 8th grade team (they live in Amity) and - unfortunately - this really sounds exactly like something he would tell my niece.
Nope, it wasn't him. This was a Portland area team. BTW - if this had happened in my local kids rec league, this guy would have been suspended for life - or longer!
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