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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 31, 2009, 01:16am
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shot clock test question

well I got this one wrong. I even have an old test with the other answer circled. Is this right? I picked B, not reset.

The alternating-possession arrow is pointed to the White Team. White #10 attempts a try for goal with 10-seconds left on the shot clock and the ball misses the rim. White #55 and Blue #45 both grab the ball at the same time creating a held ball.
Correct (A) The White Team is awarded the throw-in and the shot clock will be reset.


Reference(s): Handbook: Shot Clock Rules; Rule Book 4-41-2; 4-12-3; 6-4-3
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Old Sat Oct 31, 2009, 02:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantducky View Post
well I got this one wrong. I even have an old test with the other answer circled. Is this right? I picked B, not reset.

The alternating-possession arrow is pointed to the White Team. White #10 attempts a try for goal with 10-seconds left on the shot clock and the ball misses the rim. White #55 and Blue #45 both grab the ball at the same time creating a held ball.
Correct (A) The White Team is awarded the throw-in and the shot clock will be reset.


Reference(s): Handbook: Shot Clock Rules; Rule Book 4-41-2; 4-12-3; 6-4-3
You don't reset because possesion didn't change. The test is wrong.
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Old Sat Oct 31, 2009, 07:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantducky View Post
well I got this one wrong. I even have an old test with the other answer circled. Is this right? I picked B, not reset.

The alternating-possession arrow is pointed to the White Team. White #10 attempts a try for goal with 10-seconds left on the shot clock and the ball misses the rim. White #55 and Blue #45 both grab the ball at the same time creating a held ball.
Correct (A) The White Team is awarded the throw-in and the shot clock will be reset.


Reference(s): Handbook: Shot Clock Rules; Rule Book 4-41-2; 4-12-3; 6-4-3
The answer might depend on whether this is NCAAM or NCAAW.

4-11.7: ...continue without a reset when: i. afyter a ... held ball occurs during a throw-in or (women) after an unsuccessful try that does not contact the ring or flange and the AP arrow favors the throw-in team
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Old Sat Oct 31, 2009, 07:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
The answer might depend on whether this is NCAAM or NCAAW.

4-11.7: ...continue without a reset when: i. afyter a ... held ball occurs during a throw-in or (women) after an unsuccessful try that does not contact the ring or flange and the AP arrow favors the throw-in team
Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't realized that was a NCAA-W only rule.

On a related note, am I understanding this correctly? From the same rule...

Stop the timing device and continue time without a reset when play begins under the following circumstances:

j. After the ball goes out of bounds and was last touched simultaneously by two opponents, both of whom are either inbounds or out of bounds or when there is doubt as to who last touched the ball.

So if A has possession with 10 seconds left on the SC and A1 fumbles the ball after which A2 and B2 touch it simultaneously before it goes OOB, whichever team is awarded the ball using the AP, that team has only the remaining 10 seconds? Even if it is B?
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Old Sat Oct 31, 2009, 10:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
So if A has possession with 10 seconds left on the SC and A1 fumbles the ball after which A2 and B2 touch it simultaneously before it goes OOB, whichever team is awarded the ball using the AP, that team has only the remaining 10 seconds? Even if it is B?
While the rule could be better written, it only applies if A gets the ball back.
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Old Sat Oct 31, 2009, 07:45pm
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In NCAA-M, there is no team control during a shot.

Therefore, when W-55 and B-45 grabbed the ball with no team control the shot clock must be reset.

That being said, if the calling official can "sell" that W-55 grabbed and had possession of the ball ever so slightly first before B-45 did, then there would be no reset of the clock.

Last edited by dahoopref; Sun Nov 01, 2009 at 12:44am.
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Old Sat Oct 31, 2009, 11:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahoopref View Post
In NCAA-M, there is no team control during a shot.
Is there in NCAAW? Why the difference?

To me, it does not seem equitable to reset in this situation (I know what I think doesn't matter). If the shot clock is around 1-2 seconds, it makes more sense for B to let it go, than to grab it and risk a tie up and a reset for A. Doesn't make much sense... Also a once every million games type situation...
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Old Sat Oct 31, 2009, 11:49pm
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yeah kind of seems like it hurts the non-shooting team who may have made a good defensive play to get the held ball called.

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 01, 2009, 12:48pm
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The reason that you reset the shot clock in this situation is that -- and most officials don't realize this -- you ALWAYS reset the shot clock after a held ball. That's NCAA Rule 2-14-6c.

The only exceptions to that (in the Men's game) are when there is team control and the defense causes the held ball or when there is team control and we don't know who caused the ball to go out of bounds. This assumes, in both cases, that the offensive team has the arrow, obviously.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 01, 2009, 02:43pm
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so back to the first post and this is for high school, would you not reset there? I always thought you do not reset but I got it wrong unless the answer is incorrect.
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Old Sun Nov 01, 2009, 02:58pm
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High School Shot Clock Rules ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantducky View Post
This is for high school.
Does the NFHS have shot clock rules?

Here's what IAABO gives us:

IAABO—HIGH SCHOOL SHOT CLOCK OPERATOR’S INSTRUCTIONS
Prepared by the International Association of Approved Basketball Officials, Inc.

PROCEDURES
Shot clock shall be used entire game . . . including any overtime periods
Shot clock duration for 30/35 seconds per State association

START SHOT CLOCK
Throw-In: When an in-bounds player legally touches or is touched by the ball (Exception: Kicking ball)
Jump Ball: When a player gains CONTROL of ball
Missed Try: When a player gains CONTROL of ball
Missed Free Throw: When a player gains CONTROL of ball
Loose Ball: When a player gains CONTROL of ball

OFFICIALS’ SIGNALS
RESET: A whirling motion of a pointed index finger above head
VIOLATION: Official taps top of head with open palm

WHEN TO RESET
Floor violations (except kicking)
Intentionally kicked ball: reset as per league or State association
Ball hits ring on a try or tap (shot clock stops) reset when team control acquired
Opponent secures CONTROL of the ball
Personal foul
Try/tap fails to hit ring and is recovered by opponent
Held ball (if DEFENSIVE team has A/P arrow)
Technical foul

WHEN NOT TO RESET
Defensive team touches ball, but does NOT gain CONTROL
Defensive team causes ball to go out of bounds
Defensive team causes a HELD BALL, but OFFENSIVE team has A/P arrow
Blocked tries/taps recovered by the OFFENSIVE team
Try/tap fails to hit ring and is recovered by OFFENSIVE team
Held ball during a throw-in and OFFENSIVE team has A/P arrow
Time-out is granted
Game is stopped due to injury or loss of glasses/contact lens
Game is stopped due to blood rule
Any shot at WRONG basket

ABSOLUTES
Participate with pregame meeting with referee
Be attentive, accurate and maintain focus during entire game, avoid distractions
Maintain eye contact with the official responsible for putting ball in play
Maintain an appearance of impartiality throughout the game

Rev. 9/2009

In addition, we use this for our local prep schools that use a hybrid version of NFHS and NCAA rules:

SHOT CLOCK SITUATIONS
The shot clock is NOT RESET if a kicking violation occurs and the shot clock is 15 seconds or higher. If shot clock is below 15 seconds and a kicking violation occurs, the shot clock is set to 15 seconds.
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Old Sun Nov 01, 2009, 07:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantducky View Post
so back to the first post and this is for high school, would you not reset there?
Since there's no national HS shot clock rule (and it's not officially allowed as a state adoption), you'll have to ask your state association how they want this handled.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 09:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
The answer might depend on whether this is NCAAM or NCAAW.

4-11.7: ...continue without a reset when: i. afyter a ... held ball occurs during a throw-in or (women) after an unsuccessful try that does not contact the ring or flange and the AP arrow favors the throw-in team
In NCAA-W, the clock does not reset because the possesion does not change.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 09:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
The reason that you reset the shot clock in this situation is that -- and most officials don't realize this -- you ALWAYS reset the shot clock after a held ball. That's NCAA Rule 2-14-6c.

The only exceptions to that (in the Men's game) are when there is team control and the defense causes the held ball or when there is team control and we don't know who caused the ball to go out of bounds. This assumes, in both cases, that the offensive team has the arrow, obviously.
Rule 2, Section 14?????? What rule book are you looking in? The correct Ruling is 2-11.6.e and if you look at the exceptions to the rule, 2-11.7.i is the exception for NCAA Women. So your statement of ALWAYS is incorrect......
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Last edited by IREFU2; Mon Nov 02, 2009 at 09:49am.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 02:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IREFU2 View Post
Rule 2, Section 14?????? What rule book are you looking in? The correct Ruling is 2-11.6.e and if you look at the exceptions to the rule, 2-11.7.i is the exception for NCAA Women. So your statement of ALWAYS is incorrect......
2-11.6.e?????? What rule book are you looking in? 2-11.6.c addresses the held ball, .e addresses a violation. A held ball is not a violation.

To Scappy's assertion (I'm pretty certain he uses the Chuck Norris rule book, which is NEVER wrong, and nobody EVER challenges!):

2-11.6.c indicates that the shot clock is always reset on a held ball, with the following exceptions:

2-11.7.e tells us if there is team control and the arrow favors the team in control, the team in control gets the ball back for an AP throw-in without a reset.

2-11.7.i tells us if there is a held ball during a throw-in -- which if I am reading correctly, will only occur if the thrower holds the ball out over the court and a defender ties it up -- and the arrow favors the throwing team, the throwing team gets the ball back for an AP throw-in without a reset.

I'm not sure why this is significant and warrants its own exception. There is team control during a throw-in in NCAA, so wouldn't this simply be a very unusual instance of 2-11.7.e?

2-11.7.i also tells us that in NCAA-W if there is a simultaneous held ball (which I take to mean that both rebounders grab it at the same time without either establishing team control first) after a try that does not draw iron, and the arrow favors the throwing team, the throwing team gets the ball back for an AP throw-in without a reset.

2-11.7.j tells us if the ball goes OOB after/because of touching two opponents simultaneously, and the arrow favors the team in possession, the team in possession gets the ball back for an AP throw-in without a reset.

Again I'm not sure why this warrants its own case.

I'm trying to think of weird, wild, whacky held ball situations where the shot clock would, or would not, reset. But I'm drawing a blank.

It seems to me a simpler generalization for NCAA-M would be: The shot clock never resets on a held ball if the arrow favors the team in control, otherwise it resets.

For NCAA-W, add the "missed shot" exception.

Feedback?
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