Shot Clock Question

[Zebra1]

I just got my season started last week already! Of course we are going to have problems working the kinks out. We had a play and me being the rookie just put my 2 cents in and went on, but I don't think we got it right. The play:

Shot clock winding down, ball goes out of bounds, whistle just before the horn about as close as can get. We get together, I'm thinking probably put 1 tick on the shot. Nope the other 2 both disagreed and said violation. I know it wasn't a full second, but don't we have to give the ball back with no violation. Some veteran input please.

[nine01c]

You've got to allow for "lag time." This is the second it takes for the timer to stop the clock once he hears the whistle/sees official's arm go up. This is normal and time is NOT put back on the clock.

[Hawks Coach]

And to be clear, this means that if A has ball and B deflects OOB, you have whistle then horn (horn w/i a second), ball is now going to B due to shot clock violation.

[Mark Dexter]

Zebra, what set of rules are you using?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
And to be clear, this means that if A has ball and B deflects OOB, you have whistle then horn (horn w/i a second), ball is now going to B due to shot clock violation.

No. NFHS does not have a shot clock.

All official, unmodified, rule sets that I know of that have a shot clock, do not have "lag time".

In the NCAA or NBA, the clock will be reset to whatever time was on the clock at the time of the whistle. So you can't have this scenario. The only similar scenario is the end of quarter but in this case, it's only an expiration of time where the next possession is by the arrow and not for a violation.

These are the quandries that can be had by modifying part of the rules.

[Hawks Coach]

Camron
You are right about NBa and NCAA - but they have no lag time any time. As I understand lag time in NFHS, if you choose to use a shot clock, lag time would apply to that as well. You have no direct knowledge with which to reset the shot clock, and you have no reason to do so if you allow lag time to stop a clock - no reason a shot clock should be ay different.

I agree, this is a quandary established by modifying part of the rules!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Camron
You are right about NBa and NCAA - but they have no lag time any time. As I understand lag time in NFHS, if you choose to use a shot clock, lag time would apply to that as well. You have no direct knowledge with which to reset the shot clock, and you have no reason to do so if you allow lag time to stop a clock - no reason a shot clock should be ay different.

I agree, this is a quandary established by modifying part of the rules!

I don't think lag time can apply, due to the fact that the lag time rule in the NF book covers only the game clock.

[Nevadaref]

For those states that use a shot clock with NFHS rules, I think that 5-6-2 should be modified to cover this play. It is certainly the most appropriate rule.

[ChuckElias]

This is one situation in which I think Rule 2-3 really does come into play. The shot clock is clearly NOT covered by the FED rules. Therefore, the referee should make a ruling. In my opinion, if you're sure the whistle blew before the horn, then the best solution is to use the NCAA rule (since the shot clock is governed by NCAA rules) and put the time back on the shot clock.

[Zebra1]

NCAA rules. Just need some help on this one. Glad this came up early in the season! Thanks for all of the replies.

[NCAAREF]

Chuck I follow what you are saying, but unless the officials have definite knowledge of the timing error, they cannot put time back on the clock. In this instance, there could be anywhere from .1 seconds to a full second. Depending on the remaining time, the NCAA rules may or may not allow time for a shot to be taken, and I haven't seen a shot clock yet that allows you to put tenths of a second up. My call would be shot clock violation and away we go.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by NCAAREF
Chuck I follow what you are saying, but unless the officials have definite knowledge of the timing error, they cannot put time back on the clock. In this instance, there could be anywhere from .1 seconds to a full second. Depending on the remaining time, the NCAA rules may or may not allow time for a shot to be taken, and I haven't seen a shot clock yet that allows you to put tenths of a second up. My call would be shot clock violation and away we go.

I've never seen a shot clock with tenths of seconds either, so if the sitch happened tweetbuuuzzz on the OOB then I'm going to have to put 1 second back on.

If a clock does NOT show tenths then the rules don't allow us to decide whether a shot is physically impossible to be taken before the fact as does the .3 second rule. You need to judge it as it happens.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by NCAAREF
Chuck I follow what you are saying, but unless the officials have definite knowledge of the timing error, they cannot put time back on the clock.

I understand exactly what you're saying, but if you know that the whistle sounded before the horn, then you know that there was no shot clock violation. Therefore the shot clock must have more than zero seconds on it. Since we can't put less than a second on it, and it has to be more than zero, I'd put a second on it.

I'm not going to enforce a shot clock violation when I know that there was not one. Just my opinion.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I understand exactly what you're saying, but if you know that the whistle sounded before the horn, then you know that there was no shot clock violation. Therefore the shot clock must have more than zero seconds on it. Since we can't put less than a second on it, and it has to be more than zero, I'd put a second on it.

I'm not going to enforce a shot clock violation when I know that there was not one. Just my opinion.

Man, I just hate it when some loooh-zah who says "Offense" on a team control foul agrees with me.

[Hawks Coach]

It seems to me a far greater penalty to not let me attempt a last minute shot when the horn goes after the whistle but within one second. End of the game, down by one, and the defense tips it OOB with .5 on the clock, that's a legitimate scoring opportunity and chance to win the game that I lose out on by NF rules if horn goes after whistle. Why should a simple shot clock violation be any different? In both cases, we have knowledge that whistle came before the horn, but NF allows lag time on the game clock. parts is parts, and clocks is clocks

We can't go to replay like NBA and NCAA, we have no knowledge on which to work, so how can you reset the shot clock? Keep it simple seems to be the NF rule for timing, so when shot clock is used, I say follow that guideline.