A pass is a pass, a shot is a shot...

[Back In The Saddle]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this whole thing too, but...

Your list of things you can do with the ball is pretty limited. A player may also tap the ball, bat the ball, kick the ball, hold the ball, strike the ball with a fist. Those are also all actions recognized by rule. Keep in mind while the rules specifically disallow some actions (e.g., kicking), and formally define some others (e.g., dribbling), they do not constitute a comprehensive listing of all allowed actions. For instance, a player may simply abandon the ball, a discussion we've had at least once here. Throwing the ball off his own backboard, I think, falls into this same category. It is not prohibited (and, in fact, the case book says it is legal). It could be part of a pass, or a try (like the alley oop to himself in the OP), that is a judgment the official needs to make. But, if not, then it's...nothing we need to worry about. I suppose that means he could spend the entire quarter just bouncing the ball off the glass.

As for team and player control, those are well defined. If the player is not holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds, it's not in player control. However, team control is not lost until the ball is dead, a try, or a player of the other team secures control. So while the player is bouncing the ball off the glass, there is no player control but team control still exists. Unless you judge it to be a try.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I suppose that means he could spend the entire quarter just bouncing the ball off the glass.

If player A1 tosses the ball repeatedly off his/her own backboard while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor . . . it is legal.

Isn't this, "repeatedly off his/her own backboard", the same as "from one hand to the other" ? If so, and I believe it is, then 4.44.3D(a) tells us this is legal.

The difference between (a) and (b) in 4.44.3D is the pivot foot movement. That is why I have decided that as long as the foot/feet do not move in excess of the prescribed limits stated in 4-44-3, that is one way an alley-oop to yourself, off your own backboard, would be legal.

[Back In The Saddle]

Like I said previously, I'm still trying to get my head around this one too...

48 hours ago, I would have agreed with you. However, it now appears to me that tossing the ball off your own backboard is ... nothing. The rules acknowledge it, and tell us a little about this activity (e.g., it is legal, it is not part of a dribble). But that's about all they say about it. Trying to fill that void by shoehorning this action into another rule which regulates a different activity is incorrect. You may as well argue that the thrower moving from the designated spot is traveling, it's the same (incorrect) logic.

Without posting all of the relevant text...
Traveling is moving beyond the prescribed limits while holding the ball. There is one exception, and that involves placing the ball on the floor while getting up.

Dribbling involves pushing the ball to the floor. The opponent's backboard is considered part of the floor for this purpose. One's own backboard is not. It is simply "equipment".

Passing involves another player, or at least the intent to throw the ball to another player.

And we acknowledge that we're not talking about a try.

So what does that leave? It leaves an activity that is not regulated by rule.

As for the "self alley oop"... the NCAA case book says this is legal and is a try. The NFHS case book does not actually say this, but there is a case situation that is close that is deemed legal. It is activity that is otherwise widely accepted to be legal. The rules do not prohibit it.

Camron has suggested that the "self alley oop" is actually two tries. I'm not convinced, but I have no basis for argument. I think the whole process of throwing it off the glass, catching, and dunking constitutes one play and is therefore all part of the same try. But I have no basis for my argument either.

My personal feeling on the whole subject? I'm putting away my shoehorn.

[Scratch85]

OK BITS, if your going to be like that, I'll put my shoehorn away too. Right after I say this:

I can't find (understand) anything illegal about the self alley-oop. If I ever have to call it, I will probably allow it. When asked by the opposing coach why it is legal, I will not respond with all of my shoehorning.

I will just say:

"Our Association has determined that is legal because the pass off the glass is judged to be a try."

[Back In The Saddle]

That's probably better than my answer. Which would be, "Can you show me where the rules say it's not legal?"

Like I said, I'm still trying to get my head around this one. Most likely somebody will be by later today to point out the flaws in my thinking and argument.

[FrankHtown]

I have to guess the ruling is this way to take the onus off the referee of trying to determine intent.

If it hits the backboard, it's a shot: no team control, anybody can get the ball...it's a rebound..no travelling, etc

[jdmara]

So do we have a consensus that if the ball is thrown against the backboard we would treat it as a shot and team control is lost?

-Josh

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by jdmara

So do we have a consensus that if the ball is thrown against the backboard we would treat it as a shot and team control is lost?

-Josh

"consensus" is a pretty strong word for what I think we have here.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Scratch85

"consensus" is a pretty strong word for what I think we have here.

Consensus? Count the inmates in the prison?

[jdmara]

Ok, bad choice of words. Would most of you consider a thrown ball off the backboard a try? So if a thrown ball goes into the backcourt, it would be legal for the offense to recover it untouched by the defense?

-Josh

[Back In The Saddle]

Other than the "self alley oop", unless it appear to me to be an attempt to score I'm not counting it as a try. So if it goes untouched into backcourt, I'm paying particular attention to who is "first to touch".

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Consensus? Count the inmates in the prison?

JAR, that jape lands only if somebody misspells 'consensus'.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Consensus? Count the inmates in the prison?

Originally Posted by mbyron

JAR, that jape lands only if somebody misspells 'consensus'.

Yep, JAR is talking about a "concensus."

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Ok, bad choice of words. Would most of you consider a thrown ball off the backboard a try? So if a thrown ball goes into the backcourt, it would be legal for the offense to recover it untouched by the defense?

-Josh

No to both questions.

It's not a try, not a dribble, not a pass. It's a "something else" with it's own set of rules.