A pass is a pass, a shot is a shot...

[jdmara]

In a previous thread Basketball has started... I discussed a situation where an obvious (front-court) pass ricochets off the rim into the backcourt and retrieved (untouched) by the offense. I corrected my partner who called this a backcourt violation and we gave the ball back to the offense.

After the discussion (on this board and with some esteemed local association members who do NCAA), I would not correct my partner if this happened again. I have come to the conclusion that a pass is a pass and a shot is a shot (pretty profound, huh?). If it's an obvious pass the shot clock would not reset so why would I not call a backcourt violation? I should call it.

However, that leads me to think about another situation if I use the profound finding that a "pass is a pass and a shot is a shot". A1 has a wide open break away dribbling towards his/her (I have to be politically correct, right? ) basket. A1 picks up their dribble with two hands (ends the dribble), passes the ball off the backboard (to themselves), takes a couple additional steps after the release of the ball, then jumps and dunks the ball. Yes, we are talking about the rim-rockin' alley oop to themselves Shouldn't this be considered a pass to themselves and thus a violation?

I know I'm over thinking the situation and I need someone to set me straight on it. Thanks for being the ones to set me straight

-Josh

[APG]

I think you'll find that almost all officials will consider this a try rather than "passing" the ball to yourself.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jdmara

However, that leads me to think about another situation if I use the profound finding that a "pass is a pass and a shot is a shot". A1 has a wide open break away dribbling towards his/her (I have to be politically correct, right? ) basket. A1 picks up their dribble with two hands (ends the dribble), passes the ball off the backboard (to themselves), takes a couple additional steps after the release of the ball, then jumps and dunks the ball. Yes, we are talking about the rim-rockin' alley oop to themselves Shouldn't this be considered a pass to themselves and thus a violation?

There are (or were) specific case plays in both FED and NCAA where this is legal.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Shouldn't this be considered a pass to themselves and thus a violation?

-Josh

Speaking from the Fed side only, a pass to yourself is not necessarily a violation. Of course, it is no longer a pass either, it generally becomes a dribble. And that dribble may or may not be an illegal dribble. As of the '08-'09 Case Book, it sometimes becomes a travel (that's a whole different discussion.)

I know in your OP you are referring to an alley-oop dunk. And, my statements do not address your OP. I just wanted to address the pass to yourself issue since it is currently a matter of great discussion in my Association. I didn't mean to hi-jack the thread.

[Back In The Saddle]

I'm trying to understand why this would be legal. In any other circumstances a player who "passed to himself" and moved his pivot in order to get to the pass would have violated, right? Is this legal because the self passer dunks the ball before the pivot foot returns to the floor?

From last year's NCAA case book:
A.R. 108. A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward A’s basket for a break-away layup. Near A’s free throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his or her dribble. A1 throws the ball against A’s backboard and follows the throw. While airborne, A1 rebounds the ball off the backboard and dunks. RULING: The play shall be legal since the backboard is equipment located in A1’s half of the playing court, which A1 is entitled to use. (Rule 4-69.4)

The NFHS case book contains this, which does not address the player "following" the toss against the backboard:
9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-2; Fundamental 19)

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Scratch85

Speaking from the Fed side only, a pass to yourself is not necessarily a violation. Of course, it is no longer a pass either, it generally becomes a dribble. And that dribble may or may not be an illegal dribble. As of the '08-'09 Case Book, it sometimes becomes a travel (that's a whole different discussion.)

I know in your OP you are referring to an alley-oop dunk. And, my statements do not address your OP. I just wanted to address the pass to yourself issue since it is currently a matter of great discussion in my Association. I didn't mean to hi-jack the thread.

A ball thrown off the opponents backboard, or an official, is ruled to be a dribble. The same is not true of a player's own backboard, however.

This is an issue I have never really delved into. I'd appreciate any enlightenment in understanding the issues surrounding passing to yourself, which I have always understood to be a violation.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

A ball thrown off the opponents backboard, or an official, is ruled to be a dribble. The same is not true of a player's own backboard, however.

This is an issue I have never really delved into. I'd appreciate any enlightenment in understanding the issues surrounding passing to yourself, which I have always understood to be a violation.

I can only attempt to extrapolate some logic.

Throwing the ball off one's own backboard is akin to throwing the ball off another player.

Throwing the ball off an official or the opponent's backboard is akin to throwing the ball to the floor.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I'm trying to understand why this would be legal.

IMO, this is only legal if you determine the throw to your own backboard to be a try. On this forum it is often said that throwing the ball against your own backboard is nothing. I agree. And therefore, if the throw is not determined to be a try, case 4.44.3D(b) applies and it would be a travel (an illegal dribble prior to '08-'09.)

So, I think it requires the throw to be deemed a try to be legal. And most here, are willing to call it a try. I am reluctantly calling it a try and hope I don't have to address it during a game.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

This is an issue I have never really delved into. I'd appreciate any enlightenment in understanding the issues surrounding passing to yourself, which I have always understood to be a violation.

My definition of "pass to yourself", a player who has control of the ball, intentionally loses control of the ball with an attempted pass and is the first to touch the pass which has not touched or been touched by another player.

Sitch 1: Player A has not dribbled. He makes a "pass to yourself" that (a) touches the floor before player A touches the ball or (b) does not touch the floor before player A touches the ball.

My Ruling: Legal in (a) as Player A has now started a dribble (4-15-1). When Player A touches the ball, he may continue to dribble it as in an interrupted dribble or he may secure it and be afforded all the legal moves afforded a player who ends their legal dribble. In (b) Travel as in 4.44.3D(b).

Sitch 2: Player A is dribbling. He scures his dribble and makes a "pass to yourself" that (a) touches the floor before player A touches the ball or (b) does not touch the floor before player A touches the ball.

My Ruling: Violation in (a) and (b). In (a) Player A has started a second dribble and therefore committed an illegal dribble 9-5-3. In (b) Player A has traveled as in 4.44.3D(b)

Without becoming more wordy, that is my effort at enlightenment. So it is not the "pass to yourself" that is illegal but the illegal dribble or travel that violates.

Hopefully it will start enough discussion to get it done.

[bradfordwilkins]

Another pass/shot one that gets me --

A1 passes from outside the 3-point arc and the ball is deflected by B1 who is inside the 3-point arc; the deflection causes the ball to go into the hoop. Even though it was a pass, its still a 3 point field goal.

[jdmara]

I don't seem to be the only one that is having trouble justifying this legal/illegal act. I can't rationalize these plays... BTW, I have called this an illegal dribble while I was in college. I was specifically told this act was illegal but I'm not leaning one way or another now. I, honestly, just don't know.

-Josh