Is it a Pass or a Shot?

[John Arduini]

I was doing a men's rec league game yesterday under NCAA men's rules and a player got a breakaway, ran down the court, threw the ball off the backboard, took a few steps, caught the ball and then dunked it. I called him for traveling as you can't pass to yourself. He said he was shooting and therefore not a violation. Your thoughts??

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by John Arduini
I was doing a men's rec league game yesterday under NCAA men's rules and a player got a breakaway, ran down the court, threw the ball off the backboard, took a few steps, caught the ball and then dunked it. I called him for traveling as you can't pass to yourself. He said he was shooting and therefore not a violation. Your thoughts??

NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA: traveling

But it looked great didn't it. At least a 10.0 for style.

[Lotto]

Originally posted by John Arduini
I was doing a men's rec league game yesterday under NCAA men's rules and a player got a breakaway, ran down the court, threw the ball off the backboard, took a few steps, caught the ball and then dunked it. I called him for traveling as you can't pass to yourself. He said he was shooting and therefore not a violation. Your thoughts??

Shot or pass is a judgement call on your part. Basically, it's a shot if you think the player was shooting.

If you judge that he was shooting, then he can get the ball back, dribble, shoot, anything. The ball doesn't even have to touch the backboard---it can miss everything and he can still get the rebound legally.

If you judge that he wasn't shooting, then there are a couple of possibilities. If the player hadn't dribbled before throwing the ball up, then this might just be the beginning of a dribble. The backboard is considered part of the floor in this case. Your description makes me thing that he was dribbling before he threw the ball.

OK, now you have to think about how he released the ball. Did he end his dribble before throwing the ball? If not, throwing the ball against the backboard is just a continuation of the dribble, as I mentioned above.

OK, now suppose he dribbled, took the ball in both hands (ending the dribble), threw it off the backboard, caught it, and dunked it. If he catches it with his feet on the floor, then I think we have a double dribble (*not* a travel), since throwing it against the backboard constitutes the beginning of a new dribble. If he catches it in the air, though, and dunks all in one motion...I don't think there's a case in the rulebook that deals with this, and I can see it going either way. (This is the Tracy McGrady play from the all-star game!) My instinct is that it's legal, but I'll have to thumb through the book some more to back this up.

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA: traveling

But it looked great didn't it. At least a 10.0 for style.

How does that move exceed the allowable limits of movement?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

By definition the backboard is considered part of the court, unless a field goal or free throw attempt is involved. In the posted play A1's action was not a field goal attempt. A1's throwing the ball against the backboard and then being the first to touch it was traveling. His action is no different that if he had thrown a pass to A2 and then touched the ball before A2 or any other player had touched the ball, and it does not matter if the ball touched the court (including the backboard) or not before A1 touched the ball the second time.

[BigJoe]

This guy probably watched sportcenter after the NBA all-star game when Tracy McGrady did this exact thing. I wondered why it wasn't called travelling, but everything in the NBA I wonder why it isn't travelling. If this case was like the one I stated above, according to NFHS and NCAA rules this is travelling. We all know that he was trying to show off!

[BktBallRef]

This is not traveling, guys.

4-4-5
A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower's backboard it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Had he dribbled, thrown the ball to the floor and then caught it, it's a double dribble, as it would constitue the start of a new dribble. Had the ball not hit the backboard, then it's traveling, as it would be a self pass. But if the ball hits the backboard, we've got nothing. It's perfectly legal to throw the ball off your own backboard, run, and catch it. You can even throw the ball off your opponent's backboard, run and catch it, as long as you haven't previously dribbled. (4.4.5)

And don't respond that it isn't unless you have a rule or case play to back your self up.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
This is not traveling, guys.

...

And don't respond that it isn't unless you have a rule or case play to back your self up.

Good grief is right. No travelling, it's just a good,
fun play. I'm disappointed (but not surprised) by the
post claiming this is a travel.

[Lotto]

Rule 4-65. Art. 4.
A.R. 40. A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward A’s basket for a break-away layup.
Near A’s free-throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his or her dribble. A1 throws the
ball against A’s backboard and follows the throw. While airborne, A1 rebounds the ball
off the backboard and dunks. R U L I N G : The play shall be legal since the backboard is
equipment located in A1’s half of the playing court, which A1 is entitled to use.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Lotto
Rule 4-65. Art. 4.
A.R. 40. A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward A’s basket for a break-away layup.
Near A’s free-throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his or her dribble. A1 throws the
ball against A’s backboard and follows the throw. While airborne, A1 rebounds the ball
off the backboard and dunks. R U L I N G : The play shall be legal since the backboard is
equipment located in A1’s half of the playing court, which A1 is entitled to use.

Okay, my original post was based upon a logical interpretaion without looking at the associated Casebook Plays and Approved Rulings. After reading your post I decided to look at the NFHS Casebook as well as look at NCAA Men's/Womens's R4-S65-A4, A.R. 40.

NFHS Casebaook Play R4.15.4C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball (a) against the opponent's backboard and catches the rebound; or (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her own backboard, catches the rebound and dribbles again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is the first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is legal as a player's own backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, but does not constitute a part of a dribble. (R9-S5)

Casebook Play (c) is identical to A.R. 40.

I stand corrected regarding my prior posting but I just do not feel comfortable in the NFHS and NCAA rulings.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
This is not traveling, guys.

4-4-5
A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower's backboard it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Had he dribbled, thrown the ball to the floor and then caught it, it's a double dribble, as it would constitue the start of a new dribble. Had the ball not hit the backboard, then it's traveling, as it would be a self pass. But if the ball hits the backboard, we've got nothing. It's perfectly legal to throw the ball off your own backboard, run, and catch it. You can even throw the ball off your opponent's backboard, run and catch it, as long as you haven't previously dribbled. (4.4.5)

And don't respond that it isn't unless you have a rule or case play to back your self up.

Tony, I stand corrected, because I spoke off the top of my head without checking the rule book. But I still just do not feel right about this definition.

[BktBallRef]

Hey, there's stuff in there that I don't like either!

I just wanted to set the record straight.

[mick]

Too bad we have to make calls on the fly instead of stopping and looking through our books.

[rcwilco]

Mick,you mean you do not carry a little pouch around your waist on the court, with the rule books????? It always helps to have the coach read the correct rule over the PA, to which they usually willingly comply with. Keeps the game so harmonius.

[mick]

Originally posted by rcwilco
Mick,you mean you do not carry a little pouch around your waist on the court, with the rule books????? It always helps to have the coach read the correct rule over the PA, to which they usually willingly comply with. Keeps the game so harmonius.

I thought I read, "Gotta make that little pouch around the waist go away", or was that the fanny thingy?.