A pass is a pass, a shot is a shot...

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Scratch85

Speaking from the Fed side only, a pass to yourself is not necessarily a violation. Of course, it is no longer a pass either, it generally becomes a dribble. And that dribble may or may not be an illegal dribble. As of the '08-'09 Case Book, it sometimes becomes a travel (that's a whole different discussion.)

I know in your OP you are referring to an alley-oop dunk. And, my statements do not address your OP. I just wanted to address the pass to yourself issue since it is currently a matter of great discussion in my Association. I didn't mean to hi-jack the thread.

A ball thrown off the opponents backboard, or an official, is ruled to be a dribble. The same is not true of a player's own backboard, however.

This is an issue I have never really delved into. I'd appreciate any enlightenment in understanding the issues surrounding passing to yourself, which I have always understood to be a violation.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

A ball thrown off the opponents backboard, or an official, is ruled to be a dribble. The same is not true of a player's own backboard, however.

This is an issue I have never really delved into. I'd appreciate any enlightenment in understanding the issues surrounding passing to yourself, which I have always understood to be a violation.

I can only attempt to extrapolate some logic.

Throwing the ball off one's own backboard is akin to throwing the ball off another player.

Throwing the ball off an official or the opponent's backboard is akin to throwing the ball to the floor.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I'm trying to understand why this would be legal.

IMO, this is only legal if you determine the throw to your own backboard to be a try. On this forum it is often said that throwing the ball against your own backboard is nothing. I agree. And therefore, if the throw is not determined to be a try, case 4.44.3D(b) applies and it would be a travel (an illegal dribble prior to '08-'09.)

So, I think it requires the throw to be deemed a try to be legal. And most here, are willing to call it a try. I am reluctantly calling it a try and hope I don't have to address it during a game.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

This is an issue I have never really delved into. I'd appreciate any enlightenment in understanding the issues surrounding passing to yourself, which I have always understood to be a violation.

My definition of "pass to yourself", a player who has control of the ball, intentionally loses control of the ball with an attempted pass and is the first to touch the pass which has not touched or been touched by another player.

Sitch 1: Player A has not dribbled. He makes a "pass to yourself" that (a) touches the floor before player A touches the ball or (b) does not touch the floor before player A touches the ball.

My Ruling: Legal in (a) as Player A has now started a dribble (4-15-1). When Player A touches the ball, he may continue to dribble it as in an interrupted dribble or he may secure it and be afforded all the legal moves afforded a player who ends their legal dribble. In (b) Travel as in 4.44.3D(b).

Sitch 2: Player A is dribbling. He scures his dribble and makes a "pass to yourself" that (a) touches the floor before player A touches the ball or (b) does not touch the floor before player A touches the ball.

My Ruling: Violation in (a) and (b). In (a) Player A has started a second dribble and therefore committed an illegal dribble 9-5-3. In (b) Player A has traveled as in 4.44.3D(b)

Without becoming more wordy, that is my effort at enlightenment. So it is not the "pass to yourself" that is illegal but the illegal dribble or travel that violates.

Hopefully it will start enough discussion to get it done.

[bradfordwilkins]

Another pass/shot one that gets me --

A1 passes from outside the 3-point arc and the ball is deflected by B1 who is inside the 3-point arc; the deflection causes the ball to go into the hoop. Even though it was a pass, its still a 3 point field goal.

[jdmara]

I don't seem to be the only one that is having trouble justifying this legal/illegal act. I can't rationalize these plays... BTW, I have called this an illegal dribble while I was in college. I was specifically told this act was illegal but I'm not leaning one way or another now. I, honestly, just don't know.

-Josh

[APG]

Talked about at the NFHS forum recently


Ball against the backboard

[Scratch85]

I believe there are two ways for the alley-oop to be legal.

First, the pass off the backboard is a try. If it is judged to be a try, everyone knows why it is legal.

Second, if the player gathers the ball and establishes a pivot foot as in 4-44-3, the player can then release the ball on the pass before jumping off his non-pivot foot and dunking it.

I think case 4.44.3D(b) is considered a travel because the player (who has control and may establish a pivot foot) lifts both feet, restablishes the pivot foot and controls the ball again before it has touched or been touched by another player. This doesn't happen in the second situation above. The two actions allowed are a pass and a try. Both were done before either foot returned to the floor.

The release for the pass is legal and the neither foot returns to the floor until after the pass and try. If the player were to move his foot/feet in excess of the limits described in 4-44 it would be a travel as in 4.44.3D(b).

Someone help me decide if my logic is correct.

[Back In The Saddle]

So if we're going to consider this play to be a try...

NFHS 4-41-3 "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball."

and

NCAA 4-71.3 "The try shall start when the player begins the motion that habitually precedes the release of the ball on a try. The ball does not need to leave the player’s hand. The arm might be held so that the player cannot throw; however, he or she may be making an attempt."

So then I suppose the try begins when the player begins to his motion to gather the ball for the throw off of the glass? In which case any illegal contact against the "shooter" from that moment on is a shooting foul?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Talked about at the NFHS forum recently


Ball against the backboard

Thank you for making me aware for this thread. I don't know how I missed it, to be honest. Although, I don't stay as up-to-date on the NFHS board as well as I do this one.

With that said, I'm absolutely NOT trying to dig up ol' wounds and reopen them! I now accept that this play is legal!

But...What is a thrown ball considered (by rule) if it's judged to NOT be an attempt to score? To my knowledge (although limited) three things can be done with the ball, attempt a try, pass, and dribble.

Originally Posted by Shooting, Try, Tap (4-41 Art 2)

A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.

Originally Posted by Pass (4-31)

A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

Originally Posted by Dribble (4-15 Art 1)

A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

So if a player throws the ball against the backboard without an attempt to score, it cannot be a try. My definition it cannot be a pass because a pass is moving the ball from one player to another player. And it seems as though it could not be a dribble (by examining the case play) because you can dribble, shuffle your feet, and do the hokey pokey after you throw it off the glass.

Consequently, when a player throws the ball off the glance is player and/or team control retained and/or lost? What is A1 in the lane throws the ball off the glass so hard that it goes untouched into the backcourt, can this be retrieved by Team A legally? Just some thoughts

-Josh

[Back In The Saddle]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this whole thing too, but...

Your list of things you can do with the ball is pretty limited. A player may also tap the ball, bat the ball, kick the ball, hold the ball, strike the ball with a fist. Those are also all actions recognized by rule. Keep in mind while the rules specifically disallow some actions (e.g., kicking), and formally define some others (e.g., dribbling), they do not constitute a comprehensive listing of all allowed actions. For instance, a player may simply abandon the ball, a discussion we've had at least once here. Throwing the ball off his own backboard, I think, falls into this same category. It is not prohibited (and, in fact, the case book says it is legal). It could be part of a pass, or a try (like the alley oop to himself in the OP), that is a judgment the official needs to make. But, if not, then it's...nothing we need to worry about. I suppose that means he could spend the entire quarter just bouncing the ball off the glass.

As for team and player control, those are well defined. If the player is not holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds, it's not in player control. However, team control is not lost until the ball is dead, a try, or a player of the other team secures control. So while the player is bouncing the ball off the glass, there is no player control but team control still exists. Unless you judge it to be a try.