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A pass is a pass, a shot is a shot...
In a previous thread Basketball has started... I discussed a situation where an obvious (front-court) pass ricochets off the rim into the backcourt and retrieved (untouched) by the offense. I corrected my partner who called this a backcourt violation and we gave the ball back to the offense.
After the discussion (on this board and with some esteemed local association members who do NCAA), I would not correct my partner if this happened again. I have come to the conclusion that a pass is a pass and a shot is a shot (pretty profound, huh?). If it's an obvious pass the shot clock would not reset so why would I not call a backcourt violation? I should call it. However, that leads me to think about another situation if I use the profound finding that a "pass is a pass and a shot is a shot". A1 has a wide open break away dribbling towards his/her (I have to be politically correct, right? ![]() ![]() I know I'm over thinking the situation and I need someone to set me straight on it. Thanks for being the ones to set me straight ![]() -Josh |
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Sometimes a pass is a dribble
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I know in your OP you are referring to an alley-oop dunk. And, my statements do not address your OP. I just wanted to address the pass to yourself issue since it is currently a matter of great discussion in my Association. I didn't mean to hi-jack the thread. ![]() |
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I'm trying to understand why this would be legal. In any other circumstances a player who "passed to himself" and moved his pivot in order to get to the pass would have violated, right? Is this legal because the self passer dunks the ball before the pivot foot returns to the floor?
From last year's NCAA case book: A.R. 108. A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward A’s basket for a break-away layup. Near A’s free throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his or her dribble. A1 throws the ball against A’s backboard and follows the throw. While airborne, A1 rebounds the ball off the backboard and dunks. RULING: The play shall be legal since the backboard is equipment located in A1’s half of the playing court, which A1 is entitled to use. (Rule 4-69.4) The NFHS case book contains this, which does not address the player "following" the toss against the backboard: 9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-2; Fundamental 19)
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"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming |
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This is an issue I have never really delved into. I'd appreciate any enlightenment in understanding the issues surrounding passing to yourself, which I have always understood to be a violation.
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"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming |
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Throwing the ball off one's own backboard is akin to throwing the ball off another player. Throwing the ball off an official or the opponent's backboard is akin to throwing the ball to the floor.
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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IMO, this is only legal if you determine the throw to your own backboard to be a try. On this forum it is often said that throwing the ball against your own backboard is nothing. I agree. And therefore, if the throw is not determined to be a try, case 4.44.3D(b) applies and it would be a travel (an illegal dribble prior to '08-'09.)
So, I think it requires the throw to be deemed a try to be legal. And most here, are willing to call it a try. I am reluctantly calling it a try and hope I don't have to address it during a game. Quote:
Sitch 1: Player A has not dribbled. He makes a "pass to yourself" that (a) touches the floor before player A touches the ball or (b) does not touch the floor before player A touches the ball. My Ruling: Legal in (a) as Player A has now started a dribble (4-15-1). When Player A touches the ball, he may continue to dribble it as in an interrupted dribble or he may secure it and be afforded all the legal moves afforded a player who ends their legal dribble. In (b) Travel as in 4.44.3D(b). Sitch 2: Player A is dribbling. He scures his dribble and makes a "pass to yourself" that (a) touches the floor before player A touches the ball or (b) does not touch the floor before player A touches the ball. My Ruling: Violation in (a) and (b). In (a) Player A has started a second dribble and therefore committed an illegal dribble 9-5-3. In (b) Player A has traveled as in 4.44.3D(b) Without becoming more wordy, that is my effort at enlightenment. ![]() Hopefully it will start enough discussion to get it done. Last edited by Scratch85; Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:10pm. |
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Another pass/shot one that gets me --
A1 passes from outside the 3-point arc and the ball is deflected by B1 who is inside the 3-point arc; the deflection causes the ball to go into the hoop. Even though it was a pass, its still a 3 point field goal. |
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I don't seem to be the only one that is having trouble justifying this legal/illegal act. I can't rationalize these plays...
![]() -Josh |
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I am changing my mind . . . hopefully for a better one!
I believe there are two ways for the alley-oop to be legal.
First, the pass off the backboard is a try. If it is judged to be a try, everyone knows why it is legal. Second, if the player gathers the ball and establishes a pivot foot as in 4-44-3, the player can then release the ball on the pass before jumping off his non-pivot foot and dunking it. I think case 4.44.3D(b) is considered a travel because the player (who has control and may establish a pivot foot) lifts both feet, restablishes the pivot foot and controls the ball again before it has touched or been touched by another player. This doesn't happen in the second situation above. The two actions allowed are a pass and a try. Both were done before either foot returned to the floor. The release for the pass is legal and the neither foot returns to the floor until after the pass and try. If the player were to move his foot/feet in excess of the limits described in 4-44 it would be a travel as in 4.44.3D(b). Someone help me decide if my logic is correct. Last edited by Scratch85; Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 05:45pm. |
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So if we're going to consider this play to be a try...
NFHS 4-41-3 "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball." and NCAA 4-71.3 "The try shall start when the player begins the motion that habitually precedes the release of the ball on a try. The ball does not need to leave the player’s hand. The arm might be held so that the player cannot throw; however, he or she may be making an attempt." So then I suppose the try begins when the player begins to his motion to gather the ball for the throw off of the glass? In which case any illegal contact against the "shooter" from that moment on is a shooting foul?
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"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming |
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
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With that said, I'm absolutely NOT trying to dig up ol' wounds and reopen them! I now accept that this play is legal! But...What is a thrown ball considered (by rule) if it's judged to NOT be an attempt to score? To my knowledge (although limited) three things can be done with the ball, attempt a try, pass, and dribble. Quote:
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Consequently, when a player throws the ball off the glance is player and/or team control retained and/or lost? What is A1 in the lane throws the ball off the glass so hard that it goes untouched into the backcourt, can this be retrieved by Team A legally? Just some thoughts -Josh |
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