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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 11:39am
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A pass is a pass, a shot is a shot...

In a previous thread Basketball has started... I discussed a situation where an obvious (front-court) pass ricochets off the rim into the backcourt and retrieved (untouched) by the offense. I corrected my partner who called this a backcourt violation and we gave the ball back to the offense.

After the discussion (on this board and with some esteemed local association members who do NCAA), I would not correct my partner if this happened again. I have come to the conclusion that a pass is a pass and a shot is a shot (pretty profound, huh?). If it's an obvious pass the shot clock would not reset so why would I not call a backcourt violation? I should call it.

However, that leads me to think about another situation if I use the profound finding that a "pass is a pass and a shot is a shot". A1 has a wide open break away dribbling towards his/her (I have to be politically correct, right? ) basket. A1 picks up their dribble with two hands (ends the dribble), passes the ball off the backboard (to themselves), takes a couple additional steps after the release of the ball, then jumps and dunks the ball. Yes, we are talking about the rim-rockin' alley oop to themselves Shouldn't this be considered a pass to themselves and thus a violation?

I know I'm over thinking the situation and I need someone to set me straight on it. Thanks for being the ones to set me straight

-Josh
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 11:51am
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I think you'll find that almost all officials will consider this a try rather than "passing" the ball to yourself.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 12:11pm
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Originally Posted by jdmara View Post
However, that leads me to think about another situation if I use the profound finding that a "pass is a pass and a shot is a shot". A1 has a wide open break away dribbling towards his/her (I have to be politically correct, right? ) basket. A1 picks up their dribble with two hands (ends the dribble), passes the ball off the backboard (to themselves), takes a couple additional steps after the release of the ball, then jumps and dunks the ball. Yes, we are talking about the rim-rockin' alley oop to themselves Shouldn't this be considered a pass to themselves and thus a violation?
There are (or were) specific case plays in both FED and NCAA where this is legal.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 12:28pm
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Sometimes a pass is a dribble

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara View Post
Shouldn't this be considered a pass to themselves and thus a violation?

-Josh
Speaking from the Fed side only, a pass to yourself is not necessarily a violation. Of course, it is no longer a pass either, it generally becomes a dribble. And that dribble may or may not be an illegal dribble. As of the '08-'09 Case Book, it sometimes becomes a travel (that's a whole different discussion.)

I know in your OP you are referring to an alley-oop dunk. And, my statements do not address your OP. I just wanted to address the pass to yourself issue since it is currently a matter of great discussion in my Association. I didn't mean to hi-jack the thread.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 01:11pm
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I'm trying to understand why this would be legal. In any other circumstances a player who "passed to himself" and moved his pivot in order to get to the pass would have violated, right? Is this legal because the self passer dunks the ball before the pivot foot returns to the floor?

From last year's NCAA case book:
A.R. 108. A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward A’s basket for a break-away layup. Near A’s free throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his or her dribble. A1 throws the ball against A’s backboard and follows the throw. While airborne, A1 rebounds the ball off the backboard and dunks. RULING: The play shall be legal since the backboard is equipment located in A1’s half of the playing court, which A1 is entitled to use. (Rule 4-69.4)

The NFHS case book contains this, which does not address the player "following" the toss against the backboard:
9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-2; Fundamental 19)
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 01:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch85 View Post
Speaking from the Fed side only, a pass to yourself is not necessarily a violation. Of course, it is no longer a pass either, it generally becomes a dribble. And that dribble may or may not be an illegal dribble. As of the '08-'09 Case Book, it sometimes becomes a travel (that's a whole different discussion.)

I know in your OP you are referring to an alley-oop dunk. And, my statements do not address your OP. I just wanted to address the pass to yourself issue since it is currently a matter of great discussion in my Association. I didn't mean to hi-jack the thread.
A ball thrown off the opponents backboard, or an official, is ruled to be a dribble. The same is not true of a player's own backboard, however.

This is an issue I have never really delved into. I'd appreciate any enlightenment in understanding the issues surrounding passing to yourself, which I have always understood to be a violation.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 01:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
A ball thrown off the opponents backboard, or an official, is ruled to be a dribble. The same is not true of a player's own backboard, however.

This is an issue I have never really delved into. I'd appreciate any enlightenment in understanding the issues surrounding passing to yourself, which I have always understood to be a violation.
I can only attempt to extrapolate some logic.

Throwing the ball off one's own backboard is akin to throwing the ball off another player.

Throwing the ball off an official or the opponent's backboard is akin to throwing the ball to the floor.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 01:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
I'm trying to understand why this would be legal.
IMO, this is only legal if you determine the throw to your own backboard to be a try. On this forum it is often said that throwing the ball against your own backboard is nothing. I agree. And therefore, if the throw is not determined to be a try, case 4.44.3D(b) applies and it would be a travel (an illegal dribble prior to '08-'09.)

So, I think it requires the throw to be deemed a try to be legal. And most here, are willing to call it a try. I am reluctantly calling it a try and hope I don't have to address it during a game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
This is an issue I have never really delved into. I'd appreciate any enlightenment in understanding the issues surrounding passing to yourself, which I have always understood to be a violation.
My definition of "pass to yourself", a player who has control of the ball, intentionally loses control of the ball with an attempted pass and is the first to touch the pass which has not touched or been touched by another player.

Sitch 1: Player A has not dribbled. He makes a "pass to yourself" that (a) touches the floor before player A touches the ball or (b) does not touch the floor before player A touches the ball.

My Ruling: Legal in (a) as Player A has now started a dribble (4-15-1). When Player A touches the ball, he may continue to dribble it as in an interrupted dribble or he may secure it and be afforded all the legal moves afforded a player who ends their legal dribble. In (b) Travel as in 4.44.3D(b).

Sitch 2: Player A is dribbling. He scures his dribble and makes a "pass to yourself" that (a) touches the floor before player A touches the ball or (b) does not touch the floor before player A touches the ball.

My Ruling: Violation in (a) and (b). In (a) Player A has started a second dribble and therefore committed an illegal dribble 9-5-3. In (b) Player A has traveled as in 4.44.3D(b)

Without becoming more wordy, that is my effort at enlightenment. So it is not the "pass to yourself" that is illegal but the illegal dribble or travel that violates.

Hopefully it will start enough discussion to get it done.

Last edited by Scratch85; Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:10pm.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 02:36pm
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Another pass/shot one that gets me --

A1 passes from outside the 3-point arc and the ball is deflected by B1 who is inside the 3-point arc; the deflection causes the ball to go into the hoop. Even though it was a pass, its still a 3 point field goal.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 02:56pm
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I don't seem to be the only one that is having trouble justifying this legal/illegal act. I can't rationalize these plays... BTW, I have called this an illegal dribble while I was in college. I was specifically told this act was illegal but I'm not leaning one way or another now. I, honestly, just don't know.

-Josh
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 03:40pm
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Talked about at the NFHS forum recently


Ball against the backboard
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 05:39pm
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I am changing my mind . . . hopefully for a better one!

I believe there are two ways for the alley-oop to be legal.

First, the pass off the backboard is a try. If it is judged to be a try, everyone knows why it is legal.

Second, if the player gathers the ball and establishes a pivot foot as in 4-44-3, the player can then release the ball on the pass before jumping off his non-pivot foot and dunking it.

I think case 4.44.3D(b) is considered a travel because the player (who has control and may establish a pivot foot) lifts both feet, restablishes the pivot foot and controls the ball again before it has touched or been touched by another player. This doesn't happen in the second situation above. The two actions allowed are a pass and a try. Both were done before either foot returned to the floor.

The release for the pass is legal and the neither foot returns to the floor until after the pass and try. If the player were to move his foot/feet in excess of the limits described in 4-44 it would be a travel as in 4.44.3D(b).

Someone help me decide if my logic is correct.

Last edited by Scratch85; Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 05:45pm.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 05:57pm
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So if we're going to consider this play to be a try...

NFHS 4-41-3 "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball."

and

NCAA 4-71.3 "The try shall start when the player begins the motion that habitually precedes the release of the ball on a try. The ball does not need to leave the player’s hand. The arm might be held so that the player cannot throw; however, he or she may be making an attempt."

So then I suppose the try begins when the player begins to his motion to gather the ball for the throw off of the glass? In which case any illegal contact against the "shooter" from that moment on is a shooting foul?
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 07:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
So if we're going to consider this play to be a try...

NFHS 4-41-3 "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball."

and

NCAA 4-71.3 "The try shall start when the player begins the motion that habitually precedes the release of the ball on a try. The ball does not need to leave the player’s hand. The arm might be held so that the player cannot throw; however, he or she may be making an attempt."

So then I suppose the try begins when the player begins to his motion to gather the ball for the throw off of the glass? In which case any illegal contact against the "shooter" from that moment on is a shooting foul?
No...it is really two seperate tries....and there could be a foul on either one. Also, there is likely a gap between the two "tries" where A1 is not a shooter....after they have initially released the ball and are in contact with the floor and until the "rebound" the ball and start a new motion to shoot.
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Old Thu Oct 29, 2009, 09:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
Talked about at the NFHS forum recently


Ball against the backboard
Thank you for making me aware for this thread. I don't know how I missed it, to be honest. Although, I don't stay as up-to-date on the NFHS board as well as I do this one.

With that said, I'm absolutely NOT trying to dig up ol' wounds and reopen them! I now accept that this play is legal!

But...What is a thrown ball considered (by rule) if it's judged to NOT be an attempt to score? To my knowledge (although limited) three things can be done with the ball, attempt a try, pass, and dribble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooting, Try, Tap (4-41 Art 2)
A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a teamís own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the officialís judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the playerís hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pass (4-31)
A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dribble (4-15 Art 1)
A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.
So if a player throws the ball against the backboard without an attempt to score, it cannot be a try. My definition it cannot be a pass because a pass is moving the ball from one player to another player. And it seems as though it could not be a dribble (by examining the case play) because you can dribble, shuffle your feet, and do the hokey pokey after you throw it off the glass.

Consequently, when a player throws the ball off the glance is player and/or team control retained and/or lost? What is A1 in the lane throws the ball off the glass so hard that it goes untouched into the backcourt, can this be retrieved by Team A legally? Just some thoughts

-Josh
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