Tough situation my partner put us in

[CoachP]

105 posts on an accidental/inadvertant whistle. It's a rule. Good coaches know that. Don't worry 'bout us. (The smart ones ). The terrible coaches will either learn the game or be in the stands in 2 years.

I've seen 1 in 14 years of JV and 8 years of varsity. It's just one play. We know after that you will be even a better official the rest of the game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If your partner sees a crash during rebounding action, the ball is rolling loose, he blows his whistle, puts his fist in the air, then realizes 2 teammates slammed into each other, is this a bad call or an accidental whistle?

I've actualy had this happen to me, except in my case the fouled player kept possession of the ball. I immediately realized my mistake, and gave the ball to the team that had possession when I sounded my whistle.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

Just like the NFHS, I don't have a definition for an inadvertant/accidental whistle.

But I did supply the NCAA definition, which also fits the various NFHS case plays: "An inadvertent whistle occurs any time an official blows the whistle as an oversight and does not have a call to make." It's a pretty easy transition. Yes, I know there are many differences between NCAA and NFHS, but in this area (POI and accidental/inadvertant whistles), the codes are alike.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Yes, I know there are many differences between NCAA and NFHS, but in this area (POI and accidental/inadvertant whistles), the codes are alike.

Just as is the habitual motion preceeding a try, but that's another story

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

How many here would call this an accidental whistle and give the ball back to A?

Only those of us that know the rule.

So, let me get this straight - in your play, after the whistle, if A2 hits it off the back of the backboard, you would give it to B? But if A2 missed the backboard and it went right to A3, you would give it to A? And if the ball is caught by A3 and B3 simultaneously, you would go AP? What if A2 throws it back on the court, but it rolls a while before players go to pick it up - how long do you wait before determining who gets it? Just curious as to what rule or case you use to justify who gets the ball based on what happens after the IW?

What if the reason the player threw it off the back of the backboard was because they were affected by the sound of the whistle? Are you 100% sure A2 didn't turn their head slightly at the sound of the whistle, and that's what caused then to throw it against the back of the backboard? Players react to the whistle, and play is either affected or stopped after the whistle is blown. So what happens after an IW is not the same as if play had continued without the whistle. That's why the rules include the provision for POI - give it back to the team last in control at the time of the whistle. Period.

Want to avoid being "unfair"? Don't blow an inadvertant whistle. Otherwise, just follow the rules.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Only those of us that know the rule.

So, let me get this straight - in your play, after the whistle, if A2 hits it off the back of the backboard, you would give it to B? But if A2 missed the backboard and it went right to A3, you would give it to A? And if the ball is caught by A3 and B3 simultaneously, you would go AP? What if A2 throws it back on the court, but it rolls a while before players go to pick it up - how long do you wait before determining who gets it? Just curious as to what rule or case you use to justify who gets the ball based on what happens after the IW?

What if the reason the player threw it off the back of the backboard was because they were affected by the sound of the whistle? Are you 100% sure A2 didn't turn their head slightly at the sound of the whistle, and that's what caused then to throw it against the back of the backboard? Players react to the whistle, and play is either affected or stopped after the whistle is blown. So what happens after an IW is not the same as if play had continued without the whistle. That's why the rules include the provision for POI - give it back to the team last in control at the time of the whistle. Period.

Want to avoid being "unfair"? Don't blow an inadvertant whistle. Otherwise, just follow the rules.

Okay, point taken. My point was what would the call be if the above happened and I was positive that the split second early whistle did not affect the actions. Your point was that there is no way to be positive of this.

Remove the player from the equation. The pass sails high over everybody's head. You have a brain fart and sound the whistle a half second before
the ball smacks ten feet high on the wall. Is this also an accidental whistle, and the ball goes back to A? Or am I the only one who has ever imposed the little known inevitability clause written somewhere in small print?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Remove the player from the equation. The pass sails high over everybody's head. You have a brain fart and sound the whistle a half second before
the ball smacks ten feet high on the wall. Is this also an accidental whistle, and the ball goes back to A? Or am I the only one who has ever imposed the little known inevitability clause written somewhere in small print?

That's not an accidental whistle, it's a premature whistle.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Remove the player from the equation. The pass sails high over everybody's head. You have a brain fart and sound the whistle a half second before the ball smacks ten feet high on the wall. Is this also an accidental whistle, and the ball goes back to A? Or am I the only one who has ever imposed the little known inevitability clause written somewhere in small print?

You're probably not the only one. You're just the only one to admit seeing small print in the NFHS rule book.

Like Bob said, it's a premature whistle, not inadvertant. There was a call to make (OOB); it was simply called early. Going back to the OP (remember that play?...), it was an inadvertant whistle because there was no call to make (no backcourt violation). If it was A3 about to receive the ball in the backcourt, then you could argue the same premature whistle, instead of an IW, because the violation was going to occur once A3 touched it.

As long as we're doing "what if's", what if, in your case, the air from the A/C vent pushes the ball downward after the whistle, and it ends up staying inbounds. If it hits the wall, it's a premature whistle, because there was a call to make. If it stays inbounds, it's an IW, because there was no call to make.

Yea, I know there's no definition of premature whistle. But I hope you follow the logic.

Hey, wait a minute...didn't I say I was done with this?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's not an accidental whistle, it's a premature whistle.

I like to wait a beat on OOB calls just like plays to the hoop. Nothing worse than popping it & a split second later an athletic player (out of nowhere) dives to save it

Anticipate what may happen (to prepare) then respond vs. react to what actually occured.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Like Bob said, it's a premature whistle, not inadvertant.

Yea, I know there's no definition of premature whistle. But I hope you follow the logic.

I completely missed the part, until now, where Camron mentioned the same play, more or less.

I definitely follow the logic. But I also followed all the times in this thread when you said "follow the rule."

Only rule I know here is that the whistle causes the ball to become dead, and no violation has yet occurred at this time. So, according to you, you must return the ball to the team last in team control.

I just wanted to see what it would take to make you say that sometimes one may/must stray away from the letter of the written rule.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's not an accidental whistle, it's a premature whistle.

Technically, they're the same thing...at the moment of the whistle there had been no infraction.

By your implication, he situation in the OP would also be a premature whistle since the offensive team had no way to retrieve the ball without violating.

If someone is going to make any claim that the rules must be followed and an inadvertent whistle be claimed in the OP, then they must also do the same thing when any whistle is blown before the infraction actually occurs. To do otherwise is simply inconsistent....even hipocrasy.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I like to wait a beat on OOB calls just like plays to the hoop. Nothing worse than popping it & a split second later an athletic player (out of nowhere) dives to save it

Anticipate what may happen (to prepare) then respond vs. react to what actually occured.

I was trained to whistle when the ball attains OOB status. It doesn't do so until it touches something OOB, even if it's on a high bounce and doesn't touch anything until it's 10 feet OOB.

That way, I don't have to wait beats or think of other extraneous considerations. I whistle to signal that the ball has become dead.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

By your implication, he situation in the OP would also be a premature whistle since the offensive team had no way to retrieve the ball without violating.

The difference being the ball hitting the wall was imminent and definite, while the violation in the OP was not.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

The difference being the ball hitting the wall was imminent and definite, while the violation in the OP was not.

No, what was imminent in the OP was a turnover. So, the accidental whistle "rule" can be waived, but only if a violation is "imminent and definite." And this can be found in our books on page? Sounds a lot like a case of "cuz I said so" to me.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No, what was imminent in the OP was a turnover. So, the accidental whistle "rule" can be waved, but only if a violation is "imminent and definite." And this can be found in our books on page? Sounds a lot like a case of "cuz I said so" to me.

Yep, it is.

Look, I understand what you and Camron are trying to say, and by a strict reading of the rules, you may be right. But there is still the issue of players being affected by the whistle. In the OP, when the official blew the whistle, someone stopped, someone else slowed down, another player turned around to look at the official, etc. Play was affected by the whistle, however slight. If a player was diving for the ball going OOB, and the whistle caused them to alter their movements, yes, I would also consider that an accidental whistle.

However, if no players were affected, the ball was well out of reach, and unless you can show me the wall was affected by the whistle, yep, I gonna "waive" that accidental whistle rule thingy and call it a premature whistle, cuz I said so.