The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2003, 02:51am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 423
I'm a second year official and I work primarily Freshman/JV HS games with the occasional girls varsity. In order to gain more experience, I do some CYO youth league games on the weekends. Typically I work with generally untrained, but occasionally experienced partners who are shaky with the rules and the mechanics. Last Saturday I did a 6th grade boys game and in a one point game, I whistled a double foul with Team A in the bonus and Team B not in the bonus. The AP was to Team A. I ruled that no free throws are shot on double fouls and was about to put the ball in play using the AP. The score lady emphatically called us over and insisted that Team A needed to shoot the bonus and although I explained the rule, my partner, who was by chance the R for that specific game, agreed with her. In order to get the call right I went to the table and got my rule book out and showed the reference to my partner, and then called the coaches together and explained the rule to the coaches and we resumed play using the AP arrow. My question is: did I handle the situation correctly and what could I have done better? My mentor suggested that the interruption of the game's flow perhaps outweighed the benefit of getting the call right at that time and that I shouldn't have gone to the rulebook in that situation. Sorry I rambled on, any suggestions?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2003, 03:54am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Lightbulb "private conversation."

I would have not stopped the game to get my rulebook. If you do that once, it will be expected the next time. You needed to have a "private" conversation with your partner and "convince" him of what the rule was. If that did not work, we would have just done what he suggested and moved on. Then I would not have called anymore double fouls the rest of the game.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2003, 03:59am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 423
I know what you mean, as soon as I called the double foul, which was clearly needed and recalled we had one in the bonus and one not in the bonus, I sensed we were in for some grief.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2003, 04:30am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 38
Wink siituation w/ partner

Quote:
Originally posted by SMEngmann
I know what you mean, as soon as I called the double foul, which was clearly needed and recalled we had one in the bonus and one not in the bonus, I sensed we were in for some grief.
I kind of agree with Rutledge; leave the rulebook in the dressing room. Talk about it at half-time or after the game, I would not stop the game for rule inpretation. Because the players are not playing, the coaches are not coaching, you and partner are not officialing, in situations like this, everybody got free time and nothing to do, that's when something is likly to happen....fights, getting in the face, taunting, ect......
__________________
LC
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2003, 11:01am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,771
Is this the wrong place to mention that I've never called a double foul since I started officiating high school basketball (1987)?

Probably is.

Rich
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2003, 11:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,616
Calling a double foul can be a very valuable tool.

As for this situation, take the R aside, and tell him, "Trust me on this. I'm right." Just because he's the R does not give him the right to overrule you. If he still won't bend, do it his way, and then show him what a fool he is later.

Next time, he'll listen to you.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2003, 04:45pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Lightbulb Please do not misunderstand my statement.

If it is warranted, call double fouls when you can. I agree with Tony, they can be very useful tools to control a game. My comment was more directed because the partner was ignorant of the rule as to what you do on a double foul. And if you call another with that partner, in that game, he will suggest you shoot the bonus. I do not want folks thinking you should never call a double foul. But I do believe also, that most of the time you want to call the first foul. You can use the double foul usually for post play that is getting completely out of hand. A message can be sent and they usually get it at that point.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2003, 06:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 400
Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Is this the wrong place to mention that I've never called a double foul since I started officiating high school basketball (1987)?

Probably is.

Rich


Me neither, since 1982.
__________________
omq -- "May I always be the kind of person my dog thinks I am."
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 14, 2003, 09:48pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,771
I just think it is more valuable to get the "right" foul and if necessary, get the other player at the other end of the floor. If necessary, talk to the players after calling the foul. One person is usually more responsible than the other.

My partner called one last night in a boys varsity game. No big deal.

We had a really good game last night, I think -- at least 25% of our fouls were off-ball fouls. My partner even heard someone near the table remark that "these guys don't miss anything."

Of course, that's not true. I missed the fact that I was working the game with the flu. I felt kinda crummy yesterday afternoon, but started feeling better near game time. Worked the game, passed on post-game dinner/beers, and went home. Started feeling a bit worse, took temp, 104. Yikes. Slept all day today. Eaten a piece of toast. Some flu shot.

Rich
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2003, 12:44am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 426
Send a message via AIM to dhodges007 Send a message via Yahoo to dhodges007
What I was told...

I have been told in a situation like that get your p alone and say that "I will take full responsibility for this call." If he still says no then say, "you are taking full responsibility for it then."

I agree with the others -- leave the book in the locker room.

Denny
__________________
~Hodges

My two sense!
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2003, 02:11am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,910
Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Is this the wrong place to mention that I've never called a double foul since I started officiating high school basketball (1987)?

Probably is.

Rich
If you call it very often, you're probably missing the instigator. But when used judiciously , it's a great call to clean up post play when two players are being stupid.

Z
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2003, 11:11am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
An alternative to calling the double foul that I learned at camp (for when you've got two players continually going at it) is to call a common foul on one them, and on your way to report tell the other player, "The next one will be on you if you two don't knock it off!". Have used it a couple of times and had good success with it.
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 12:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 233
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Is this the wrong place to mention that I've never called a double foul since I started officiating high school basketball (1987)?

Probably is.

Rich
If you call it very often, you're probably missing the instigator. But when used judiciously , it's a great call to clean up post play when two players are being stupid.

Quote:
[/B] Originally posted by BITS
An alternative to calling the double foul that I learned at camp (for when you've got two players continually going at it) is to call a common foul on one them, and on your way to report tell the other player, "The next one will be on you if you two don't knock it off!". Have used it a couple of times and had good success with it.
[/B]
I like 'em both. Great comments.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 18, 2003, 03:16pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 29
Hey kid, you have guts and made your point. Most novice referee's would never step up the way you did. My perspective on this issue is your eagerness to make the right call. In this case for me it's not a matter on who's right. Keep up the confidence and I advise you and your partner to continue reading the rule book as we all do.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 18, 2003, 05:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,050
Quote:
Originally posted by SMEngmann
I'm a second year official and I work primarily Freshman/JV HS games with the occasional girls varsity. In order to gain more experience, I do some CYO youth league games on the weekends. Typically I work with generally untrained, but occasionally experienced partners who are shaky with the rules and the mechanics. Last Saturday I did a 6th grade boys game and in a one point game, I whistled a double foul with Team A in the bonus and Team B not in the bonus. The AP was to Team A. I ruled that no free throws are shot on double fouls and was about to put the ball in play using the AP. The score lady emphatically called us over and insisted that Team A needed to shoot the bonus and although I explained the rule, my partner, who was by chance the R for that specific game, agreed with her. In order to get the call right I went to the table and got my rule book out and showed the reference to my partner, and then called the coaches together and explained the rule to the coaches and we resumed play using the AP arrow. My question is: did I handle the situation correctly and what could I have done better? My mentor suggested that the interruption of the game's flow perhaps outweighed the benefit of getting the call right at that time and that I shouldn't have gone to the rulebook in that situation. Sorry I rambled on, any suggestions?
A couple of years ago, I basically had the same situation. My partner called a double foul with a Team A in control of the ball. He said we were going to use the AP. I told him the rule quietly, he disagreed so I let it go considering he had 15 years more experience than I did. Later, he checked the rule book and realized his error.

This November, the same guy called me a couple of days before the exam. He wanted me to verify a rule that he was not sure about. It goes to show that your fellow officials will develop confidence in you, it just takes time.

Jay
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:58am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1